Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia—Minister for Defence) (15:00): Senator, if you were honest with the Senate you would show us the piece of paper that I have seen, because I asked ASC to show me their costings. It is a one-page document based upon a piece of computer software, where you fit in a 4,000 tonne submarine in terms of materials, and out pops a number. They do not even know our top-end requirements. They have never designed a submarine at ASC. They have never designed a submarine. Let's get real here. This is not for people who are looking for a job. This is a professional program that is about national security, and we will take the advice of the service chiefs, not somebody who is looking for a job. The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Conroy: I rise on a point of order. The minister is referring to a document. I was wondering if the minister would table it for the Senate. He is inviting people to know. Here is your chance: table it. The PRESIDENT: Minister, do you have anything on the point of order? There is no point of order, Senator Conroy. Senator JOHNSTON: The opposition is fully aware of the problem that is confronting the government with this program. Having done nothing they are now saying, 'You should be doing something.' They did nothing because they had costed it at an out-turned dollar value of $88 billion.