Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia—Minister for Defence) (14:57): It may be that we have one submarine builder in Adelaide, because we have not built one for 20 years. I want to say that, when I was appointed to this particular ministry, I was told two key facts by the department with respect to submarines. Firstly, that the inaction of the previous government meant that we were facing a very serious capability gap because of the planned withdrawal date of the Collins class submarine. Of course, Senator, you would be aware that this is a vital piece of strategic deterrence to us, given we have most of the value of our $1.6 trillion economy using the sea. Secondly— Senator Wong interjecting— Senator JOHNSTON: I note that I am being interrupted by the person sitting at the table leading the opposition. She knows the truth about the value of this program. The estimated cost of the future submarine program was said to me to be more than $40 billion. Essentially the same figure was handed to me from the previous government. That is the whole program cost for 12 submarines. The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Moore: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. There was only one question; it was asking the minister why he was denigrating Mr Wiley, and we have not come close to that. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Moore. I remind the minister that he has 39 seconds left to answer the question. Senator JOHNSTON: These numbers should be known by everyone in the submarine enterprise. The Australian Strategic Policy Institute supported the $40 billion price tag by saying, in 2009, that they thought the value of 12 submarines built in Adelaide would be $36 billion. Taking into account the cost of inflation, the out-turned dollar value of a 20-year build of 12 submarines is— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Moore: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. In terms of the process, the minister may feel that we need to know those figures, but the question was: why is he denigrating Mr Wiley? Senator JOHNSTON: Everybody knows, including the former finance minister, that the out-turned cost of the program in the 2009 white paper was more than $80 billion. As finance minister, she knows that number, and that is why they did nothing. That is why they— (Time expired)