Senator PAYNE (New South Wales—Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Women) (14:25): I have said that twice now. I am not sure quite what it is that Senator Kitching seeks to imply. If Senator Kitching and those opposite are intending to advance an alternative proposition, then they should actually say it; if they are not, then they should stop endeavouring to smear a member of the House of Representatives. If they are uncomfortable about their own associations, historically, with similar organisations, or if they are uncomfortable about evidence that comes up in the Independent Commission Against Corruption in New South Wales, which I have seen week in and week out as a New South Wales senator, that is not my problem. The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Payne! Senator Kitching, on a point of order? Senator Kitching: Mine is on relevance but also on misleading the chamber. I'm not sure that Senator Payne actually has said that Ms Liu, the member for Chisholm, is a fit and proper person, yet Senator Payne at the beginning of her answer to the second supplementary— The PRESIDENT: I'll ask you to come to your point on relevance. Claims like the one you're making now are debating points that aren't appropriate for points of order. You were going to make a point about direct relevance. Senator Kitching: On relevance: I have asked if she is a fit and proper person and if the minister is able to give that assurance. The PRESIDENT: I will make a couple of observations at this point. We do need to be careful about asking ministers when it is not directly their portfolio responsibility or agency responsibility, nor is it necessarily in the authority of the minister to determine someone's eligibility or their fit-and-proper status, other than in a vernacular sense, to sit in the parliament. I'll allow the minister to continue to answer the question, draw her to the question and remind people of my previous ruling about commenting on other people. Senator PAYNE: I have completed my answer.