Senator PAYNE (New South Wales—Minister for Human Services) (14:34): I thank Senator Ruston for her continuing interest in this area of policy. The first thing I want to say and the single most important factor in this area is that under the Higher Education Loan Program no student needs to pay a cent up front and no-one needs to start repaying anything until they are earning over $50,000 a year. So the point is that higher education in Australia is and remains affordable and accessible for all. But we have seen over recent months a quite irresponsible scare campaign, with sweeping claims that all students are facing extortionate fees. That scare campaign, which has come from some in this chamber—from those opposite, from members of the Greens, from the completely unrepresentative NTEU, the National Tertiary Education Union—unfortunately for them— Senator Kim Carr: Name them! Come on, name them. Senator Conroy: Name him! The PRESIDENT: Order on my left! Senator Cormann interjecting— Senator PAYNE: The facts are going to get in the way of their good story— Senator Kim Carr interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Carr! Senator PAYNE: Let's start with the University of Western Australia, one of Australia's four universities in the top 100 in the Shanghai Jiao Tong rankings. They have announced that their charge will be $16,000 a year for their undergraduate courses. Senator Kim Carr: Up by nearly 300 per cent. Why don't you get that bit in? The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr! Senator PAYNE: I would like to use the words of UWA—those opposite are not interested in hearing the facts— Senator Kim Carr: A 300 per cent increase. Not bad if you can get it. Senator PAYNE: 'The University of Western Australia is offering future students the possibility to obtain a three-year undergraduate degree from one of the world's top 100 universities for under $50,000.' Senator Kim Carr interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr! Senator PAYNE: Mr President, perhaps it is disappointing for those opposite. Perhaps they really want to persecute Australian students. So they are disappointed that their scare campaign is not coming true. But in fact it is significantly less, in fact less than half, of the scare campaign they tried to run. (Time expired) Senator Kim Carr: What does a law degree cost? Senator Cormann: It depends how much you earn. Senator Conroy: If you will just name him, he will stop interjecting. Senator Cormann interjecting— Senator Cameron: Get the Havana cigar out. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron and Senator Cormann, you can go to the lobby and discuss this. Senator Conroy: We will support that if it is a joint expulsion. Senator Payne: I think Mathias has had better offers than that. Senator Cameron: I have never been able to afford a Havana cigar. The PRESIDENT: Order! Let's get back to question time, senators.