Senator AYRES (New South Wales—Minister for Industry and Innovation and Minister for Science) (14:50): This is an extraordinary question, really, to try and find in that organisation's discussions, to try and work your way through to find somebody in the energy sector who actually agrees with the sort of feral wildness that has overtaken the Liberal and National parties on energy policy. The Australian Energy Council say: … the Australian Energy Council, supports an economy-wide interim emissions reduction target as an important step towards achieving net zero. They say: Interim targets serve to provide certainty to industry and the broader economy about the expected investment pathway. The interim target will be challenging, but that is not a reason to stop trying. That is what industry is demanding. The Australian Industry Group— The PRESIDENT: Minister Ayres, please resume your seat. Senator McDonald? Senator McDonald: The minister is obviously trying to find the answer, so I'm turning him back to relevance—how high will energy prices get under your net zero plan? The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator McDonald. The minister is being relevant to your question. Senator AYRES: The question—through you, President—was about the Australian Energy Council, and I'm answering it. It is impossible to find a serious contributor in Australian industry, in the energy sector, in manufacturing, in the business community, who thinks that a preferable position would be a disorderly transition run by the show over here. I understand that the impulse for danger, the impulse for wrecking, the impulse for self-indulgence has overtaken here, but the problem is that the people who pay for your policy self-indulgence are ordinary Australians. When you're self-indulgent about energy policy, ordinary Australians pay. The PRESIDENT: Senator McDonald, first supplementary?