Senator WATT (Queensland—Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and Minister for Emergency Management) (14:01): Thank you, Senator Duniam, for the question. Well, another day, and we have the opposition continuing to clutch at straws to find any reason possible to stop workers in this country from getting a pay rise. They will do anything to stop talking about workers getting a pay rise. They will do anything to stop small businesses and medium-sized businesses being able to participate in a system that exists under their current legislation to deliver pay rises for their workers, a more simple industrial relations system and higher productivity for small businesses. Senator Duniam: A point of order, President, on relevance: the question was pretty clear, around the source of the information and whether the minister would take responsibility, not the— The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Duniam. I will draw the minister to the question. Senator WATT: As I say, this is a continuation of what we saw yesterday from the opposition, trying to find any possible reason, whether it be websites or people—consultants. What this is actually about is one of the false claims that the opposition has been making this week, which is their claim that it will cost small businesses $14,000 to participate in multi-employer bargaining, and medium-sized employers will pay even more. Now, you'll be surprised to hear that that's actually wrong. The way the laws are structured allows for small businesses to have access to the cooperative workplaces stream, so that, if a small business wants to go and engage a consultant, whoever that might be, to assist them with their results, then that's a matter for them. But what I think you will find is that most small businesses are members of chambers of commerce, are members of industry associations, who would actually go and do the negotiations on their behalf. And then a small business would have the option of choosing to be part of that or not. Of course, if their workers would like to be part of that, then the majority of those workers have to go through a process to support that option. They also have to go to the Fair Work Commission to get approval to do so. So this idea— Senator Duniam: A point of order on relevance, again, Madam President: this business round—everything other than the answer we asked for. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Duniam. I will draw the minister back to the question, and I would ask those on my left to listen— Senato r McKenzie interjecting— The PRESIDENT: in silence, thank you, Senator McKenzie! Senator WATT: So, as I say, what the opposition is saying is just plain wrong, and I'll keep telling you why. (Time expired) Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: I'm waiting. You have a senator on his feet.