Senator CORMANN (Western Australia—Minister for Finance, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:20): You are quite right: that is precisely what I have said in the past. That is the trajectory that a disastrous Labor government put Australia on between 2007 and 2013 because when we came into government we inherited a rapidly deteriorating budget position. Remember those 11 weeks between Labor's last budget and their last economic update— Senator Wong interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Wong, I have Senator Gallagher on her feet with a point of order. Senator Gallagher: The point of order is not only relevance but also under standing order 73(4) that the answer should not be debated, Mr President. But the question was very straightforward: what is the amount of gross government debt today? The PRESIDENT: The preface, to be fair, Senator Gallagher, contained assertions about quotations you used of the minister. He is allowed to directly address those and be relevant. There is an opportunity to debate the sufficiency or otherwise of answers after question time. Senator Cormann? Senator CORMANN: We are tabling this afternoon an updated statement of Australian government debt. Now, given the question's been asked, I'll table it now. I'll make sure that—here we are. Let me tell you: it is much less than it would have been if we hadn't fixed your budget mess because, you know what, we are in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone, other than the Labor Party, understands this. Yes, we've had to spend a lot of money in the last few months in order to support the economy, to support business, to support jobs, to support those Australians who lost their job. There is a context to this. But let me tell you: we went into— Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Keneally, can I say something before I take your point of order. When I can't hear Senator Cormann about three metres from me, there's a serious problem with noise. I'm going to call everyone to order on the matter of noise, and I'll call Senator Keneally on the point of order I assume she's about to raise. Senator Keneally: Thank you, Mr President. It is direct relevance. The minister says he has the answer. He's unwilling to say it out loud— The PRESIDENT: That's not a point of order. Senator Keneally: to the chamber. So I ask him— The PRESIDENT: Senator Keneally, please resume your seat. I am not in a position to rule on the relevance or otherwise of an answer I was struggling to hear over my own voice and probably 50 members of this chamber. Senator Cormann. Senator CORMANN: That is much less than it would have been if we had not fixed Labor's budget mess. The Labor Party at the same time accuses us of cuts that are too hard. Then they say we should spend more on everything. Then they complain the debt is too high. Let me tell you: the debt is much lower than it would have been under your government than it is under our government. We have reduced the unsustainable spending growth when you oppose us every step of the way. Australia went into this pandemic in a stronger fiscal position as a result of the work we did, and the Australian people know it, which is why they voted against you at the last election. The PRESIDENT: Senator Gallagher, a supplementary question?