Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia—Minister for Defence) (14:58): Senator Conroy—may I say through you, Mr President—where were you when you delivered two pay rises below the rate of inflation? What were you saying then? You are not even blushing. You are not even embarrassed. You delivered two pay rises below the rate of inflation. And you just sat on your hands— The PRESIDENT: To the chair, Minister. Senator JOHNSTON: when you delayed 42 programs in the Defence Capability Plan—some of them— Senator Conroy: Oh, back to that! Senator JOHNSTON: Back to that, because some of them involved force protection of soldiers. Where were you then? Senator Conroy interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Conroy, you have asked your question. Senator JOHNSTON: Where were you then when you had—and I note you have some people from ASC—a frigate program $350 million over budget and, with submarines, nothing happening at all over six years? Where were you then? All you could do was take money out of the Defence portfolio, and we are repairing that damage. You should be very embarrassed about your performance in government.