Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia—Minister for Defence) (14:55): Does anybody seriously believe that we would want to reduce the terms and conditions of soldiers? Senator Conroy: You have! Yes, we believe it! The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Conroy: About 50,000 of our service personnel believe it. Senator JOHNSTON: The only reason—if I can get a word in edgeways, because the next bit they do not want to hear—we are in the position we are in— Senator Conroy: A 'no excuse' government! The PRESIDENT: Senator Conroy, you have asked your question. Senator JOHNSTON: is because of the negligent mismanagement of the opposition when they were in government. They were absolutely hopeless in managing the chequebook and the budget, taking $16 billion out of Defence. Not only did they put our national security in jeopardy but, of course, right across the board government departments were overpaid. We were left in a position where we now have to repair the budget. This is the legacy— Senator Kim Carr: Did you say they are overpaid? Did you say our soldiers are overpaid? The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr! Senator JOHNSTON: I might say, Mr President, in every other part of Australia when the going gets tough people tighten their belt. We are saying it is only fair, with $667 billion coming over the horizon in debt, that Canberra has to tighten its belt, because this is the legacy that Labor has left us. This is the no wriggle room— Senator Kim Carr interjecting — The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr! Senator JOHNSTON: Do we want to bequeath to our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren the level of debt that you guys just ran up on a credit card? And you could not care less. Senator Lines: Talk about your dirty deals! The PRESIDENT: Senator Lines! Senator JOHNSTON: You are bellyaching about 4.5 per cent of ABC cuts over five years when you took 10 per cent out of the Defence budget in just one year, which was more than $2½ billion—that is the sort of management that we came to expect from you. That is why the Australian people gave you a fair dinkum boot up the backside at the last election.