Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia—Minister for Defence) (14:43): I thank Senator Gallacher for his question. I was not with the Prime Minister and the President all the time. However, DCNS, a naval architect and constructor established in 1631 in France, is a very capable builder of submarines. Indeed, they build a 14,000-tonne submarine— Senator Conroy interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Conroy! Senator JOHNSTON: and they build a number of diesel electric submarines, predominantly exported into our region, into India and Malaysia. French sonars are par excellence. Accordingly, it would be very surprising if my Prime Minister having Thales, one of our biggest defence exporters of sonar components, from Rydalmere in Sydney, if they did not discuss submarines and submarine construction. The point is, we have another of our companies here which have a connection with France— Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Conroy! Pause the clock. Minister. Senator JOHNSTON: So it would be very logical and proper if the Prime Minister, in discussing maritime and French-Australian relations, was to discuss submarine sonars and the very fact that we had a submarine program to be unfolded in Australia in the next several years. I am sure he would also have said, 'We're cleaning up one hell of a mess left to us by the Labor Party.' They talk about the ABC cuts—4.5 per cent over five years. They took 10 per cent out of the defence budget in one year. (Time expired)