Mr SWAN (Lilley—Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer) (14:13): I am more than happy to read out the figures from the budget papers. Gross debt or net debt—what would you like? Opposition members: Gross! Mr SWAN: Gross debt in 2012-13 is $292.8 million; in 2013-14, $321.3 million; in 2014-15, $345 million; and the peak, at 20.2, is $356 million. But the point I was making earlier— Opposition members interjecting— The SPEAKER: Order! Does the member for North Sydney want to hear the answer or not? The Treasurer has the call. Mr SWAN: That is the market value, not the face value, on issue. I know he wants to try to confuse this because he wants to be a fiscal fearmonger, ape the tactics of the Tea Party in the United States and run around the place saying that the debt is unsustainable. Net debt is low at 11.1 per cent of GDP. It is like someone with an income of $100,000 owing less than $12,000. Debt is modest in this country and we have it to support jobs and growth. So, when he is asking these sorts of questions, what he is really saying is that his alternative to these modest levels of debt—supporting jobs and growth in our economy—is to take an axe to jobs, growth, health and education. That is not something this Labor government would ever do but it is something those opposite would do, because it was the path they put forward during the global financial crisis—and if they had had their way this country would have gone into recession.