Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Leader of the Government in the Senate, Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service and Minister for Employment) (14:16): I do not pretend to be an expert in relation to that particular aspect of the assertion made by the gentleman to whom Senator Conroy refers. However, I repeat that what we want is the best possible platform for Australia's defensive strategic needs at the best possible value for money—and, of course, trying to get as many Australian jobs as possible. Indeed, as the Prime Minister has said— Senator Conroy: As possible. As possible. The PRESIDENT: On my left! Senator ABETZ: Senator Conroy says, 'As possible.' Well, we deal in possibilities; Labor deal in impossibilities, in fantasies. That is why they went to South Australia saying they had done all this work on the submarine program when they had done zilch—nothing whatsoever. And that is the mess we are cleaning up, like we did with your Australia Network and the NBN. (Time expired)