Senator PAYNE (New South Wales—Minister for Human Services) (15:04): What Senator Brown does not acknowledge in both of her questions is that we believe that, in opening up the system in the way in which these reforms are cast, the higher education institutions, not governments, will be the best judges of how to run their own business and also of how we are able to maintain and promote a world-class higher education system. Senator Kim Carr: Mr President, I raise a point of order under relevance. Both these questions to the minister go to the issue of HECS debt. The first went to the question of female graduates and HECS debt and the second to the government's underestimation of the HECS debt. The minister has refused to deal with those matters. The PRESIDENT: There is no point of order at this stage. I am listening to the minister's answer. The minister has 35 seconds remaining to answer the question. Senator PAYNE: I did want to move on to the question of the repayment threshold. We have made it very clear that graduates will begin to repay— Senator Kim Carr: HECS debt—that's what the question's about. The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Kim Carr: Why don't you try to answer it? The PRESIDENT: Order! Debating it across the chamber does not help at this stage. The minister has the right to be heard in silence. Senator Payne, continue. Senator PAYNE: What I was going to say—if I could just finish the next two words in the sentence—is that graduates will begin to repay their HECS debt when they start earning over approximately $50,000 in 2016-17, from 1 July 2016. (Time expired)