Ludlam, Sen Scott

Senator LUDLAM (Western Australia) (23:49): I do not think we need to dwell on this too much longer, although perhaps Senator Crossin wants to make a contribution before we close out this part of the debate. Again, I suspect that the minister and some of the others who have made contributions in this part of the debate are talking past each other. We are trying to tease out the degree to which the punitive aspects of this broad range of measures, which everybody agrees—and we have read some of them into the record tonight, such as withdrawing people's welfare payments or making them cart little plastic cards around in order to be able to buy the basic necessities of life—are contributing to the overall goals here. It is not really our job to analyse the stuff that is working; we are trying to pull out the controversial stuff. Nobody in here is going to critique the fact that you put another— Senator Chris Evans: You focus purely on the stuff you don't like. Senator LUDLAM: Well, I will not waste— Senator Chris Evans: You aren't focusing on any of the other measures. Senator LUDLAM: I congratulate— The CHAIRMAN: Order! To the chair, Minister, and to the chair, Senator Ludlam. Senator LUDLAM: I will leave it to the minister to put out the press statement that you put 200 teachers into the schools; that is fantastic. I do not think it is our job to come in here at this hour and congratulate you on all the great stuff that is going on, but it is great that it is. We are trying to tease out the degree to which there is evidence that threatening to withdraw people's welfare payments contributes to getting their kids to school. I would not have thought it was that difficult a concept. I suspect that, again, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not know if other senators want to make contributions, but I am happy to move these amendments now and then move on through some of the others that Senator Siewert has prepared.