Ms GILLARD (Lalor—Prime Minister) (14:34): To the Leader of the Opposition I say, as he well knows—and perhaps he should ask a pensioner about this—we have made sure that pensioners have 20 per cent over and above what they need for the average impact of carbon pricing. Mr Pyne: Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. The Prime Minister was asked a very straightforward question about how many people would be worse off under her modelling and why she does not just scrap the carbon tax. Mr Albanese: Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Often in the opposition's points of order they repeat the question and sometimes, as on that occasion, they actually ask a different question. It is totally out of order. The DEPUTY SPEAKER ( Ms AE Burke ): I will continue to point out that points of order are not to be used for debate. Ms GILLARD: That question from the Leader of the Opposition concluded by asking why I do not act to make people, as he said, better off by getting rid of the carbon price. That is what he said. I point out to the Leader of the Opposition—and it may be unpalatable for him—that his so-called plan to repeal carbon pricing, which we all know will never happen, would make pensioners worse off. His so-called plan would make households—including, for example, those with part-time working women who are benefiting from a tripling of the tax-free threshold—worse off. The Leader of the Opposition needs to acknowledge these basic facts. We know that the Leader of the Opposition's claims about a carbon price repeal are hollow and that every living Liberal leader has supported a price on carbon. He should at least be explaining to working families that his plan is one which would make millions of Australians worse off. The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Prime Minister needs to return to the question. Ms GILLARD: The Leader of the Opposition knows from— (Time expired)