Senator WONG (South Australia—Minister for Finance and Deregulation) (14:42): Net debt peaks as a percentage of GDP at 9.6 per cent in 2011-12; gross debt peaks as a percentage of GDP at 18 per cent in the same year. The net debt position is the more accurate measure of the financial position of the government, and I remind the chamber that this is around one-tenth of the level of the major advanced economies— Senator Joyce: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order on relevance. We have asked for a specific number: what is the peak gross debt position? We do not want to know about the net debt position or the percentage position—we want to know the actual number for peak gross debt. She can either give us that number or she cannot. The PRESIDENT: There is no point of order. The minister is answering the question. As I have already explained once today, I cannot instruct ministers on how to answer questions—but the minister is answering the question. Senator WONG: I know Senator Joyce likes to talk about gross debt a lot. I remind him, and I am sure as an accountant he would know this, that in household terms focusing on gross debt only is like looking at the size of your mortgage without looking at whatever money you have in the bank. He does not like the net debt position but that is why net debt— Senator Joyce: Mr President, I have a further point of order on relevance. I asked a very succinct question and it needs a very succinct answer. We just want to know what the peak gross debt number is as covered by Australian government securities in the next financial year. We do not need a lecture on 'gross', we do not need a lecture on 'net', we do not need a percentage—we just need to know the number. She either knows it or she does not know it. The PRESIDENT: There is no point of order, and that is debating the issue. Senator WONG: I think statement No. 9 has all of the CGS on issue projected over the forward estimate period. What I gave you was the GDP figure as well, because it is of relevance. The point I was making in relation to gross debt was that it is not the best or a particularly accurate measure of the financial position of a government. That is the reality. Senator Joyce does not like to hear this. Senator Joyce: Mr President, on a further point of order: the number, Mr President—she either knows it or she does not know it. Save us the lecture; give us the number or sit down. Senator Chris Evans: Mr President— The PRESIDENT: Senator Evans, I have already ruled there is no point of order. Senator Chris Evans: On another point of order, Mr President: it just seems to me that, if Senator Joyce is repeatedly standing up and seeking to argue the point with the minister after she has been at pains to give him all the information she can, it is a disruption of question time and I think it defeats the whole purpose of question time. Senator Joyce ought to be encouraged to abide by the same rules that every other senator abides by. The PRESIDENT: That is not a point of order. Senator WONG: I again say that gross debt peaks at 18 per cent of GDP in 2011-12. We commence to pay down debt from the surplus year. I do want to again remind Senator Joyce, in between him hurling abuse at me— (Time expired)