Senator CARR (Victoria—Minister for Innovation, Industry, Science and Research) (14:32): What we can say is that the government has made it perfectly clear that it is the view of the government that Malaysia will succeed and Nauru will fail. What we have is a proposition that the shadow minister for immigration has previously said—on 21 June this year, for instance—that the question of being a signatory to the convention is, in fact, irrelevant. What he said was that 'it was never our issue as to whether there was a signatory to the refugee convention'. What we do also know is that the UNHCR has indicated that the agreement with Malaysia has the potential to enhance the protection for refugees in Malaysia as well as the region as a whole. What we do have, of course, is in contrast to— Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Carr, you might resume your seat until there is silence. Senators, I have asked Senator Carr to resume his seat until there is silence. When three o'clock comes both sides can debate this. Senator CARR: What we do know is that the UNHCR has indicated that, in regard to Nauru, the UNHCR was not involved and has in fact distanced itself from any role in overseeing or managing the processing facilities on Nauru under the Pacific solution, and that recent media reports indicating that the centre on Nauru was approved by and run under its auspices 'are factually incorrect'—and I am quoting the UNHCR spokesperson in the Age of 9 June 2011. What we do know is that the Nauru proposition, as is outlined by the opposition, will not in any way assist Australia. What we saw was that the persons that ended up in Nauru actually ended up in Australia— Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr, resume your seat. Order on both sides! I remind both sides that the time for debating this is in 25 minutes. When there is silence we will proceed. Senator CARR: What we can say with certainty is that the people-smugglers will be able to sell a ticket—(Time expired)