Senator PAYNE (New South Wales—Minister for Foreign Affairs and Minister for Women) (14:00): I thank Senator Ciccone for the question. Let me start by saying that it is expected that the JobMaker hiring credit will support around 450,000 jobs for young people to move them back into employment, at a cost of $4 billion. We know that employers will be able to claim the JobMaker hiring credit for new jobs created over the 12-month period beginning 7 October for up to 12 months for each job. The credit itself is only available for additional jobs. Employers can't reduce their current workforce, by either dismissing employees or reducing their hours, to re-engage new workers performing the same work to receive the hiring credit. All employees have protections under existing industrial relations laws from unfair or unlawful dismissal, including non-genuine redundancies. The rules exposure draft explanatory material makes clear: The types of arrangements that would be prevented by the integrity provisions in the Act are varied but would include arrangements where an employer artificially inflates their employee headcount and/or payroll for a JobMaker period (for example, by terminating, or reducing the hours of, an existing older employee— The PRESIDENT: Senator Watt, on a point of order? Senator Watt: On relevance. The question was actually very narrow. It was about whether casuals with less than 12 months service are covered by the government's unfair dismissal provisions. The minister hasn't addressed that. The point is that they're excluded from protection. The PRESIDENT: Senator Watt, I have allowed you to restate the second part. There was a preface there. While the minister is talking about rules around that, I believe she is being directly relevant. Senator PAYNE: To reiterate, I did say that all employees have protections under existing industrial relations laws from unfair or unlawful dismissal, including non-genuine redundancies. I was saying, before Senator Watt took a point of order, that the rules exposure draft explanatory material makes clear: The types of arrangements that would be prevented by the integrity provisions in the Act are varied but would include arrangements where an employer artificially inflates their employee headcount and/or payroll— The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Payne! Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator Wong: The question goes to the government's unfair dismissal protections. The minister was asked to confirm that no casual employee with less than 12 months service is covered. On the basis of direct relevance, I ask her to return to that point. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, that was the question at the end of a preamble. I think the minister, by talking about those relevant provisions of the particular act, is being directly relevant. There's an opportunity to debate the merits of answers after question time. Senator PAYNE: I note in relation to unfair dismissal that, as I understand it, an eligible employee can make an unfair dismissal claim if they have been dismissed and consider their dismissal unfair. It's unlikely to be a valid reason for dismissal if an employer dismisses an employee to engage a new individual— (Time expired) The PRESIDENT: Senator Ciccone, a supplementary question?