Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Trade, Tourism and Investment and Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:21): I don't know whether Senator Waters wants a policy that basically limits the energy consumption of other countries but the truth is many countries within our region have increasing energy needs. That is a subset of increasing populations, higher living standards, fewer people living in poverty, a whole range of factors that are driving the growth of living standards. Senator McGrath interjecting— Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thank you, Senator McGrath. Yes, indeed, fewer people living in poverty is a good thing and more people enjoying higher living standards is a good thing. Increased energy consumption is part of that. They could have chosen to use more domestic coal sources in some of those cases. The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Waters on a point of order. Senator Waters: My question was a specific one about the substitution claim that the minister made, asking him to provide evidence of that. I haven't heard that being addressed yet. It is obviously central to the government's argument and the minister should substantiate those claims, even though he won't be able— The PRESIDENT: Senator Waters, you have made your point of order; it is not a time for argument. You did at the conclusion ask for specifics but you made an assertion at the start as well. The minister is allowed to expand on the assertion and be directly relevant. Senator BIRMINGHAM: The point I was making was that these countries have growing energy needs, so they may be pursuing in many cases gas as an alternative to where they might have used domestic coal reserves if they had them, alternate coal reserves if they could access them, even Australian coal potentially but they have chosen to use LNG— (Time expired) The PRESIDENT: Senator Waters, a final supplementary question.