Senator CASH (Western Australia—Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service, Minister for Employment and Minister for Women) (14:49): The government has a very clear position in relation to penalty rates. Penalty rates are to be determined by the Fair Work Commission. That is it. The government does not have a role in determining penalty rates. Anybody who says otherwise is misleading the Australian people or misleading the Senate. But I can tell you who does like to cut penalty rates, and that is, of course, the current Leader of the Opposition, Bill Shorten. There is only one person in Australia who has a record with an evidentiary basis you are unable to dispute who did not just cut but slashed penalty rates in a deal that he did when he was the National Secretary of the Australian Workers' Union—the same union and the same union colleagues that entered into a new agreement with Cleanevent. It removed— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Wong: Mr President, I rise on a point of order going to relevance. Does the minister support cuts to weekend penalty rates? A government senator interjecting— Senator Wong: Then she should sit down. Senator Williams interjecting— Senator WONG: Tell us your views on water, Wacka! Come on! The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Wong—you have made your point of order. Senator Cormann: Mr President, on the same point of order, Minister Cash could not have been more directly relevant to the question. The reason that Senator Wong got up is that Senator Cash was being too relevant to the question. Senator Wong: Mr President, further to the point of order, I simply make this point: just because something was once relevant does not make something subsequently irrelevant relevant. The PRESIDENT: Order! The minister, in answering her question, indicated the government's position and that is what a minister is to do, and the minister indicated the government's position in relation to penalty rates. All ministers are allowed to enhance their answers provided they stay relevant to the topic and Senator Cash has been relevant. Senator CASH: Thank you. Again, I reiterate the government's position in relation to penalty rates. It has been clearly and consistently stated by government members that penalty rates are a matter for the Fair Work Commission to determine, but as I was saying, if you want to look to someone who is currently a member of parliament, who puts himself out as being the future leader of this country, who has a record in relation to what I personally would call 'slashing' penalty rates—I would not call it 'cutting'—that is, of course, the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Bill Shorten, who entered into a deal which removed 'all penalty rates for low-paid cleaners with no compensation'.