Senator JOHNSTON (Western Australia—Minister for Defence) (14:30): Unlike the learned senator, I have actually read the submissions— Honourable senators interjecting— Senator JOHNSTON: I cannot hear myself think. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Yes, pause the clock. Senator Edwards and Senator Wong! Senator Cameron interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, Senator Carr has asked a question and he is waiting for a response. Minister, you have the call. Senator JOHNSTON: Having read the submissions, can I say Forgacs' statement to the Senate inquiry was that it had not previously as a company undertaken the construction of a ship of the size of 27,000 tonnes. The last time it built a ship was the Aurora Australis, 6,500 tonnes, a quarter of the size. Now, when they made their submission—if the senator was honest, and of course there is no honesty here— Senator Wong: Certainly not from you. Senator JOHNSTON: with, in the gallery, the people who control their preselections—Forgacs told the inquiry— Senator Cameron: You just lie all the time. The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Cameron! Senator Abetz: He has to withdraw that. Mr President— The PRESIDENT: Yes, Senator Cameron, you will withdraw that, please. A government senator: What about Senator Wong? Senator Wong: Mr President, I— The PRESIDENT: I did not hear Senator Wong. I will take Senator Wong first. I did not hear Senator Wong, but if she feels she needs to withdraw— Senator Wong: Well, I have been asked to withdraw, so I withdraw. The PRESIDENT: And Senator Cameron. Senator Cameron: Mr President, I am not sure it is unparliamentary to say 'the Liberal Party lied'. The PRESIDENT: You did not say that. Senator Cameron: The Liberal Party lied. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, you are now repeating the miscarriage in the first place and you did say— Senator Abetz: You did not say that. He did not say that. He said 'you lie'. Senator Cameron: No, you don't tell me what I said. The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Abetz! Senator Cameron, I will determine who said what. I heard what you said and I would appreciate you withdrawing it. Senator Cameron: The Liberal Party did lie. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron! Senator Cameron: I withdraw. Senator JOHNSTON: Forgacs also built the HMAS Tobruk,at 5,791 tonnes. Their submission says that 'with appropriate site development' they could have, at their graving dock, built a 27,000-tonne vessel—four times larger, 'with appropriate site development' of several billion dollars. What we inherited with respect to the air warfare destroyer was a failed third attempt to remediate the program. Hundreds of millions of dollars over budget, it was two years late. With an international benchmark of 60 man-hours per tonne, we set the benchmark at 80 man-hours per tonne—and what were they doing? One hundred and fifty man-hours per tonne. Some of these blocks had to be reworked up to four times. I owe it, we owe it, to the taxpayer to get this right. There are eight ships for Adelaide if we can get this right. So, instead of bleating, get onto your mates up there and tell them to lift their productivity. It is that simple.