Senator BOB CARR ( New South Wales — Minister for Foreign Affairs ) ( 14:14 ): The question concerns case studies for the college on corruption. I have got a beauty. I have got a really good one. It is right out of New South Wales, and a beautifully rounded study, concerning the period 1988 to 1995, when ministers of the Greiner and Fahey governments had season tickets to ICAC. There was consideration of building a monorail link between the state office block and ICAC in Redfern! Honourable senators interjecting — The PRESIDENT: Order! Minister, resume your seat. Senator Brandis: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. The minister may not take these allegations seriously, but the opposition and the public do. He was asked about his period as Premier of New South Wales, not a different period. I ask you to please direct him to the question. The PRESIDENT: The question was broader than that. The minister needs to address those parts of the question that pertain to the portfolio. I have ruled previously on this. The minister still has one minute and 34 seconds remaining to answer the question. Senator BOB CARR: The question was about good meaty, juicy case studies in corruption to get to this college, and we have got some beauties. From 1988 to 1995, there was ICAC's finding in New South Wales that there existed in 1989 'a climate conducive to corruption' caused by the behaviour of National Party ministers in that government. Honourable senators interjecting— Senator BOB CARR: That is a very good case study and we will see that the relevant ICAC inquiry report reaches the college. I think the senator ought to be congratulated because, after a practical suggestion— The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr, you need to turn this way to address the microphone so that people can pick up the voice. Senator BOB CARR: I think that would be a delightful case study. While we are talking about case studies for the college, there is another beauty and that is concerning Premier Greiner himself, who traded a seat in parliament for a job in the Public Service and was found corrupt by ICAC. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Order! Senator Bob Carr, resume your seat. Order on both sides! When there is silence we will proceed. Senator Fifield is entitled to be heard in silence. Senator Fifield: I have a point of order, Mr President. Senator Carr is misleading the Senate. The Supreme Court of New South Wales found that Mr Greiner was not guilty of corruption, that ICAC had made an error. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! That is debating the issue. Order on both sides! I would ask the minister to refer to the question and to address the question, and I would ask for the interjections to cease on both sides. Minister, you have 26 seconds remaining. Senator BOB CARR: The question asked me about case studies for a college on the matter of corruption. There is a third that I would want to submit, and that does concern New South Wales politics. It concerns the lost ministers and MPs through a range of scandals under the Fahey government—including one who made telephone death threats— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Bob Carr, resume your seat. Senator Brandis: I rise on a point of order, Mr President. That Senator Carr will not defend his own government speaks volumes. You should direct him to the question. Senator Chris Evans: Mr President, I rise on the point of order, to make an obvious point. My view is that these questions are not necessarily in order and that they do not go to the minister's responsibilities. But you have ruled them in order and you have generally taken a liberal view of that and I accept that and I am not in any way critical. But I think it is the case that if the opposition want to try to slur the minister by referring to things that occurred not in this parliament and not in his role as minister, they really have to get used to the fact that the glass jaw cannot be the position they adopt. If they make a sleazy political accusation, they have to expect to get beaten up in return. Senator Abetz: On the point of order, Mr President, the question was very specific in that it asked about the ministers, namely, Eddie Obeid and Ian Macdonald, both of whom are now appearing before ICAC in relation to issues of corruption. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Abetz, just wait a minute. Order, on both sides. Senator Abetz: To seek to talk about every other former premier in New South Wales other than the one actually spoken of in the question, is clearly against the sessional order which requires direct relevance in the answer. Honourable senators interjecting— Senator Jacinta Collins: Mr President, I rise on this occasion because you ruled on the last occasion that the question was in order, and it remains so. That Senator Brandis and Senator Abetz do not pay more attention to how they frame their questions is becoming more and more obvious. This question started with reference to the International Anti-Corruption Academy and case studies. If you want to ask a more specific question, Senators, I suggest you frame one. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: I have ruled previously and I will rule again that the minister needs to address that part of the question that pertains to the minister's portfolio. I have been very consistent. The minister has three seconds remaining. Senator BOB CARR: I will seek further case studies.