Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Australia—Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Science and Research and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:30): I did see Lateline last night, although I have not seen a transcript of it, so I would not want to comment on exactly what Mr Shorten said. But it seemed to me that his comments were absolutely on the mark in the sense that he was commenting on the question of whether or not members' money could be diverted for the purposes of a campaign expense of officials seeking election. Quite clearly that is not permissible. But if he then goes on to suggest that somehow persons who were not officers of the union, or were not responsible for the operation of the account, are somehow responsible for that, that is clearly a nonsense. I think Mr Shorten made the very obvious point about the use of members' money. As a former union official, many, many years ago, I was always taught by my secretary that you absolutely had to ensure that members' money was used only for the advancement of the members and you ought to be able to stand up at a general meeting of the union and defend any expense incurred. That has always been a principle that the vast majority of trade union officials have adopted, operating inside their unions. It is absolutely correct for Mr Shorten— Senator Fierravanti-Wells: Not everyone got the memo. Senator CHRIS EVANS: That is correct, Senator. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: When there is silence on both sides we will proceed. Senator Brandis is waiting for the answer to be continued. Senator CHRIS EVANS: I was making a point and then Senator Fierravanti-Wells interjected to make the point that she thinks there have been examples where that principle has not been followed, and, quite frankly, from what we have seen inside the HSU, that is right. No-one is more disappointed about that than other members of the labour movement. (Time expired)