Senator WATT (Queensland—Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and Minister for Emergency Management) (14:14): Thank you, Senator White. As we say, we understand that it's a foreign concept for the opposition that employers and workers can act together cooperatively for the benefit of both of them, but our government actually understands that. Mr Mimmo Scavera, the president of the HVAC Manufacturing and Installation Association, also gave evidence to the Senate inquiry. He represents nine major employers collectively employing approximately 900 people. Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator McKenzie, I'm waiting until your own side is quiet. Senator McKenzie, a point of order? Senator McKenzie: It is on relevance to the good senator's question. Can the minister name one small business that actually supports Labor's reforms? The PRESIDENT: Senator McKenzie, that is not a point of order. Senator Wong? Senator Wong: There are persistent points of order which actually go to the content of substantive debate. We're happy to have substantive debate, but this is time for question time. This is not the way in which points of order have traditionally been used nor should be used. If the senator wants a debate, we can have a debate. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Minister Wong. I rule the point of order out of order. Minister Watt, please continue. Senator WATT: Thank you, President. Isn't it terrible to see the coalition not want to hear from employer groups? You really would have thought that, of all the parties, they would support employer groups. But they don't support the ones that support multi-employer bargaining. The ones that oppose it are fine, but the ones that support it are terrible. Mr Scavera said— Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Watt, please resume your seat. Again, there is too much noise. Please continue, Senator Watt. Senator WATT: Mr Scavera said: It's about not having a race to the bottom, to put it bluntly. At the moment the major construction projects don't have any regulation in relation to pay. So you have a mixture of people on a site that will be either enterprise agreement covered, award covered or covered by whatever other means people are creating. We're hoping that through this mechanism we can have an industry agreement through multi-enterprises. That's what we're aiming for: to regulate the market a bit more. (Time expired) The PRESIDENT: Senator White, a second supplementary question?