Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Finance, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:14): Over the forward estimates, gross debt is expected to reach a within-year peak of $1.220 billion or 50.9 per cent— Opposition senators: Trillion! Senator BIRMINGHAM: Yes, $1.22 trillion or 50.9 per cent of GDP in April 2025. Gross debt, as the budget papers make very clear, is expected to stabilise in the medium term at around 51 per cent of GDP, compared to around 55 per cent in last year's budget— Senator Gallagher: A point of order on direct relevance: we didn't ask for the percentage; we asked for the dollar figure for peak gross debt. I know he's having trouble saying the word 'trillion', but I've asked what the dollar figure is, not the percentage. The PRESIDENT: I've allowed you to restate the question, Senator Gallagher. I was listening carefully to the minister's answer and, despite interjections, I think I heard about half of it. I've allowed you to remind him of the question. Senator Wong, before you get to your feet, I was struggling to hear the minister and all the answer; there was so much noise in the chamber. I've allowed Senator Gallagher to remind the minister of the question. The minister, in my view, from what I heard, was answering it. I'm not going to instruct him how to answer a question, but I am going to listen carefully to what he says. And I'll ask senators to remain silent so that I may rule if people raise subsequent points of order. In my view, from what I heard, he was being directly relevant. Senator Birmingham. Senator BIRMINGHAM: In the first question I faced today, the opposition asked me the question premised on the basis of $1.7 trillion. Senator Wong: A point of order on direct relevance: it was a very simple question asking for peak gross debt in dollar terms. The PRESIDENT: The minister, I think, spoke for seven seconds then. It was a factual question; it does not allow— Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my right! Order on my left! The first principle I have is that I cannot instruct the minister how to answer a question. The second principle is that this was a straight, factual question, so it does not allow for commentary, and I do not believe the minister was providing any commentary. I believe he was addressing the issue of gross debt. I am reluctant to instruct a minister, if they are being very specific to the question in my view, to get to the point of how to answer a question. I cannot instruct a minister to provide a particular number, fact, statement or observation to the chamber. There is an opportunity to debate the merit of answers afterwards. I believe the minister was constraining himself to the directly relevant issue raised by the question. I can't instruct him any further than that. Senator Birmingham. Senator BIRMINGHAM: As I was indicating before, the opposition, in the first question that they asked today, referenced $1.7 trillion in relation to gross debt figures. What we see in relation to the medium-term projections is that gross debt is projected to stabilise at lower— (Time expired) The PRESIDENT: Senator Gallagher, a final supplementary question?