Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Finance, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:00): I thank Senator Wong for her question. Indeed, this is a budget where it's been clear for some time in relation to the information provided by the Reserve Bank and Treasury in their analysis about what it would take to see pressure in relation to real wages growth—they've updated— An opposition senator interjecting— Senator BIRMINGHAM: A Labor government would give you many things, but it certainly wouldn't give you more jobs. It certainly wouldn't give you more jobs across Australia. Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator BIRMINGHAM: It certainly wouldn't give you a stronger economy. It certainly would give you, though, probably, higher taxes. Senator Wong interjecting— Senator BIRMINGHAM: Sorry; I was just responding to the interjection, Senator Wong. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator BIRMINGHAM: I was just responding— The PRESIDENT: I must take Senator Wong on the point of order, Senator Birmingham. Senator Wong: The point of order is direct relevance. I asked a very specific question about a table in the budget papers which demonstrates that, despite them racking up a trillion dollars in debt, real wages go backwards, and I've asked the minister to confirm that. The PRESIDENT: Interjections are always disorderly. It helps if ministers are not interjected upon so that they are not tempted to respond to them. I remind the minister of the question. I urge senators to remain silent and allow the minister to answer it. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thanks, Mr President. Before I was interrupted by those opposite, I was pointing out that the Reserve Bank and the Treasury had indeed provided updated information in relation to the NAIRU, the effective rate of full employment at which you expect to see wages pressure increase in the economy. The updates that they released and provided indicated that it was necessary to get unemployment sustainably below five per cent—indeed, closer to 4½ per cent—to see that type of pressure build, particularly in what is the low-interest-rate, low-inflation environment that we face at present. What the government have outlined in our economic plan, in our budget, is a very clear plan to deliver stronger employment growth that achieves lower unemployment outcomes—that meets those types of provisions and expectations that the Reserve Bank and the Treasury have outlined to drive unemployment below five per cent and to achieve that in sustainable terms. That's something that hasn't been achieved in this country for a very long time, but we are well placed to achieve that now. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator Wong: The cut to real wages in the budget—that's what the question was about. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, I've allowed you to restate part of the question. I'm reluctant to get so— Senator Wong interjecting— The PRESIDENT: I'm reluctant to get so specific in determining direct relevance that a minister, when asked a question of this nature, cannot be talking about employment and its impact upon the economy. I think the minister, with respect, is being directly relevant. I can't instruct him how to answer a question. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thanks, Mr President. As I was outlining, we're following not the views of the Labor Party there but, indeed, the advice of economic experts at the Reserve Bank and the Treasury about how best to achieve jobs growth that will then lead to the unemployment outcomes that can drive wages growth. (Time expired) The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, a supplementary question?