Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Education and Training and Manager of Government Business in the Senate) (14:30): Yesterday, the senator or associated senators asked questions about modelling in terms of future energy generation expectations, and, indeed, the government's answered those. We heard from Senator Di Natale before asking questions about the NEG modelling. You can go online and look at the NEG modelling. You can look online at the assumptions that underpin the NEG modelling. You can look at the different data sheets that underpin the National Energy Guarantee modelling. It is all there. The answer that was given to Senator Di Natale earlier today—and Senator Cameron could well look at that too— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat. Senator Cameron, on a point of order? Senator Cameron: Yes, the point of order is on relevance. I wasn't asking about what was out there anywhere else in the stratosphere. I asked: can the minister confirm that none of the 2,800 megawatts he used to defend the NEG actually results from that policy? He should be drawn to that question. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Cameron. You have reminded the minister of the question, and I note that he has a minute and 21 remaining to answer. Senator BIRMINGHAM: As I was explaining to Senator Cameron, all of that modelling, all of the underpinning assumptions and all of the data spreadsheets related to it are available on the COAG Energy Council website for Senator Cameron, Senator Di Natale and anyone else to have a look at those assumptions, that modelling and the outcomes. That modelling clearly shows that the NEG will work in a way that gives Australia energy reliability and the energy mix that we require for people to have the confidence to invest in businesses; for households to know that, when they flick the switch, the lights will go on; for households to know that their prices will, on average, be around $550 lower than would otherwise be the case, because of the work that the NEG's undertaking; and for businesses to know that wholesale energy prices would be around 20 per cent lower. That's because it works as part of a suite of policy measures. Senator Cameron: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. This was a very simple question: can the minister confirm that the 2,800 megawatts that he used to defend the NEG actually results from the policy? It's either yes or no. You've drawn his attention to the question and he should answer the question. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, I can't instruct a minister how to answer a question, but I do take this opportunity to remind the minister of the question that was restated by Senator Cameron. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Mr President, as I pointed out to Senator Cameron—as I did to Senator Di Natale and others—the modelling is all there. The modelling is there for you to see, for you to do your own analysis of, for you to look up— The PRESIDENT: Senator Carr, on a point of order. Senator Kim Carr: Mr President, on the question of relevance, it is a very specific question. Surely the minister can give a very specific answer to a very specific question. The PRESIDENT: At this point I consider the minister to be directly relevant. I have reminded him of the question. We have 14 seconds remaining. I will ask him to continue. Senator BIRMINGHAM: I'm not sure whether Senator Carr or Senator Cameron know how to use the internet, but go to Google, look up COAG Energy Council and look up modelling and you'll be able to find all of that information yourselves. The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat. Senator Wong. Senator Wong: Perhaps the issue is you don't know your policy. How about that? Government senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my right! Senator Wong: Mr President, this minister— Government senators interjecting— Senator Wong: It was very disrespectful. This was a policy question. The point of order is direct relevance— Government senators interjecting— Senator Wong: If I may— The PRESIDENT: Order! I'm trying to hear you, Senator Wong. Please continue. Senator Jacinta Collins interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Collins! Senator Wong: The point of order is direct relevance. He was asked a direct question about whether the 2,800 megawatts results from the policy and instead he reverts to abusing senators. Why don't you answer the question? Can't you defend your policy? Government senators interjecting— Senator Wong: Why don't you answer the question? Defend the policy. The PRESIDENT: Order around the chamber! Points of order are not opportunities to prosecute a case. Senator Birmingham, I have reminded you of the question, and I note you have four seconds remaining to answer. Senator BIRMINGHAM: I have concluded. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, a supplementary question.