Senator BRANDIS (Queensland—Attorney-General, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:57): Senator Kitching, I am not going to be a commentator on what Mr Abbott may have to say from time to time. He is perfectly entitled to his view. Senator Kitching, the fact is that, when Senator Birmingham made the announcement he made last week, that was a historic day in the history of Australian education, because, as a result of that announcement, the principles that Mr Gonski espoused have been reclaimed. I know you find it difficult to deal with, but they have been reclaimed by the Turnbull government and by a much better education minister than any education minister the Labor Party, during the Gillard and Rudd governments, ever put into the portfolio. And, as a result, there will be needs-based funding. Senator Kitching: A point of order, Mr President: standing order 193(3). The PRESIDENT: Would you like me to pause and read the standing order, or can you assist me, Senator Kitching? You need to provide me with a bit of clarity about what your point of order is. Senator Kitching: Standing order 193(3) refers to imputations. Senator Brandis is imputing that former Labor education ministers were not good, when, in fact, Mr President, Senator Brandis continues to ignore the very facts. Government senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my right! Senator Kitching, you can continue. Senator Kitching: I would just point out, Mr President, that Senator Brandis has once again used, and continues to use, this debate to lie. He knows very well what has happened in his own party— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Kitching, you will need to withdraw that remark in relation to Senator Brandis. I invite you to withdraw that remark about Senator Brandis. Senator KITCHING: I will withdraw. The PRESIDENT: Thank you. And, in relation to your point of order under 193(3), Senator Brandis did not extend the remarks about former Labor ministers in any way, shape or form that drew my attention to it being more harsh than other comments that are made from senators across this chamber from time to time. Senator Brandis is in order. I thank you for your point of order, Senator Kitching, but Senator Brandis is in order. Senator BRANDIS: Senator Kitching, there is no imputation, there is no implication, there is no innuendo; there is a flat-out statement of fact. Senator Simon Birmingham is a much better minister for education than any Labor minister for education in living— (Time expired)