Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Education and Training) (15:29): I will come back to the Senate with the details of the number of hours to receive the qualifications that they are getting—the qualifications under the Australian Qualifications Framework and the qualifications that meet licensing credentials. Senator Wong interjecting— Senator BIRMINGHAM: Which qualifications, Senator Wong? I will tell you again: as I just said, Certificate IV in Small Business Planning and 'Monitor and manage small business operations'; Certificate III in Carpentry; and Certificate IV in Building and Construction. Each participant receives all of these, as well as completing training to meet South Australia's business services and Building Work Contractors Act, occupational and business criteria licence requirements, the building work contractors licence, and building works— The PRESIDENT: Order, Minister! Senator Cameron, a point of order. Senator Cameron: Again, on relevance, there was one question on this, and that is: how many hours of unpaid work experience will be required of the participants? The minister has not gone near it. The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Cameron, I will entertain points of order, but I do not want it to become an abuse of question time by having an opportunity to repeat the question. Senator Birmingham very clearly, up front, indicated he would take the details of that on notice, and that is the minister's entitlement. He indicated that, and the minister is entitled then, if he is relevant to the topic, to complete the answer fully. The minister was in order. Senator BIRMINGHAM: As I was saying, a range of qualifications are received and, of course, there are on-the-job training elements to those qualifications. So I will check exactly what the on-the-job training elements are and the number of hours that are required to meet them, and I will happily provide that to the Senate—as I said, Senator Cameron, in the first 10 seconds of my answer. But all of this is about trying to trial new ways to lift apprenticeship numbers, which went into free fall thanks to the policy actions of the Gillard government in 2012. (Time expired) Honourable senators interjecting — The PRESIDENT: I believe there is one final supplementary question, Senator Brandis. Please do not get too excited, Senators! Senator Moore, a final supplementary question.