Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Education and Training) (15:26): Let me firstly deal with the last part of Senator Moore's question, in which she describes it as 'Senator Day's North East Vocational College'. Let us be very clear: the North East Vocational College is a not-for-profit training provider. It is a trading provider that Senator Day voluntarily served on the board of, received no payment for and has no financial interest in. I want to be very clear about that, because there is smearing going on from those opposite not just of former Senator Day but also of a quality training provider that just last year was recognised in the South Australian Training Awards as the Small Training Provider of the Year and in the last few weeks was visited by the state Labor Treasurer, Tom Koutsantonis. It is a recognised quality training provider. This is an alternative delivery model. That is the exact nature of the pilots that are in question here. And so it is that, yes— The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, a point of order. Senator Cameron: A point of order on relevance: we are now halfway through the response time for the question, and Senator Birmingham has not gone anywhere near answering the question that was put to him. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Cameron. Opposition senators interjecting— Government senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order, on both sides! Senator Birmingham quite clearly at the outset of his question answered a key element of the question posed by Senator Moore in relation to Senator Day, which was a clear part of the question. He has been in order. Senator BIRMINGHAM: As I was telling the senators, I have emphasised again and again these alternative delivery pilots are exactly that: they are alternative to the different delivery arrangements that trial apprenticeship models in different ways and trial the delivery of qualifications in different ways. These students will receive a certificate IV in small business planning and monitoring, and in small business management; a certificate III in carpentry; a certificate IV in building and construction building. They will also meet South Australia's Consumer and Business Services requirements, the Building Work Contractors Act, occupational and business licensing work requirements, all building work contractor licence— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Cameron? Senator Cameron: Again, a point of order on relevance. The issue was about the payment or non-payment of wages, and that has not been addressed. The PRESIDENT: That was an element of the question. Senator Cameron: It was a key element, Mr President. The PRESIDENT: That was an element of the question. Senator Birmingham, you have the call and you are aware of the question. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thank you, Mr President. I was working through the elements of the question, and, indeed, reminding the Senate and Senator Cameron that not only are recognised qualifications received but also that there are licences that are received as well. Under the alternative delivery arrangements in this case, students are not paid. They are students; that is the nature of the arrangement for this model. Just as many students around the country receive qualifications for which they are not paid during their training. This is an alternative delivery pilot— (Time expired) The PRESIDENT: Senator Moore, a supplementary question.