Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Education and Training) (14:24): I will happily check the brief that Senator Cameron is referring to as to what Senator Day at some stage may have requested in relation to proposals. I know full well, and Senator Cameron knows full well, that ultimately a grant was awarded in accordance with the guidelines that were established for the innovative apprenticeship pilot program. A grant was awarded that was negotiated along terms that set milestone payments for the North East Vocational College to deliver this innovative apprenticeship pilot. The reason the government is having a look at innovative models for apprenticeship delivery and wants to support growth in our apprenticeship system is to deal with the collapse in apprenticeship commencement numbers that occurred shortly before we came to office. To enlighten the Senate, in the year to the end of June 2012 there were 376,000 commencements of apprenticeships in Australia. But in the year to June 2013 that had dropped to 233,000—a decline of 38 per cent in apprenticeship numbers. The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Cameron, a point of order? Senator Cameron: This is on relevance. There was one question asked, and that was: could the minister confirm that Senator Day sought $1.4 million from that minister sitting across the table? He seems to have forgotten it. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, you have made your point of order. There is no point of order. The minister answered the question at the beginning of his answer and he is adding to his answer. Minister, you have the call. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thank you, Mr President. I was giving context for Senator Cameron, who seems to have forgotten that policy decisions taken in 2012 by the previous government saw a 38 per cent decline in apprenticeship commencements in Australia—a decline we are still feeling the effect of today as those apprenticeship numbers flow through the system. That is why our government has sought to act in terms of trying to look at ways to recover apprenticeship numbers, has backed the idea that there might be alternative innovative models for delivery— Senator Cameron: You were involved in a crooked deal! You are a crook, an absolute crook! Senator BIRMINGHAM: and is supporting a number of such pilot programs which will be properly evaluated, which are subject to proper guidelines and which I hope will provide some lessons that might boost apprenticeship numbers again into the future. The PRESIDENT: Senator O'Sullivan, I think I know what you are going to ask. I can deal with the matter. Senator O'Sullivan: I am in your hands. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, you need to withdraw the remark concerning Senator Birmingham. Senator Cameron: I withdraw. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Cameron. Minister, had you concluded your answer? Senator BIRMINGHAM: Yes. The PRESIDENT: A supplementary question, Senator Cameron?