Senator BRANDIS (Queensland—Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate, Vice-President of the Executive Council, Minister for Arts and Attorney-General) (14:39): First of all, Senator Ludlam, you used the expression 'indiscriminate'. We are not talking about indiscriminate access to metadata at all. Nevertheless, Senator Ludlam, let me give you two instances. First of all, there is the advice of the former Director-General of Security, Mr David Irvine, who, in one of the last press conferences he conducted before his retirement last September, described these measures as 'absolutely crucial'. Senator Ludlam: Evidence! Senator BRANDIS: His words—his expert opinion, Senator Ludlam, is evidence. You may not understand what evidence is. The expert opinion of a person seized with this particular responsibility clearly is evidence. The second item of evidence I could offer you, Senator Ludlam, is the major Europol investigation into paedophilia in Europe some two years ago, in which the use of metadata was regarded as essential for breaking that paedophile ring. (Time expired)