Senator CASH (Western Australia—Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection and Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women) (15:01): Senator Moore referred to increased debt. Well, Senator Moore, would you like to know about increased debt? Because that is actually what your party— Senator Moore: Mr President, I rise on a point of order. I refer again to direct relevance. The minister was not moving towards my question, and I do not care to hear about another 'increased debt' issue. The PRESIDENT: Senator cash, I remind you of the two questions that were asked by Senator Moore. Senator CASH: Again, it is on increased debt. Senator Moore referred to increased debt in her question, and I am directly responding to the increased debt part. That is a former government that was responsible for increased debt. This is a government that is taking steps to address the fact that, as Senator Cormann has pointed out in his answers today— Senator Wong: Mr President, I rise on a point of order. The question was about student debt. While I understand the minister wants to make some political points, it is a very important question about the effect of higher fees and higher interest on women, given that women earn less over their lifetime than men. I would have thought the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Women would want to answer that question. The PRESIDENT: The minister was asked two distinct things. Firstly, there was reference made to modelling, and the minister was asked why she was supporting increased debt in that context. Secondly, she was asked whether she has spoken to people concerning this matter. The minister has been answering the question, but I refer the minister— Senator Wong interjecting— The PRESIDENT: The minister has been answering the question— Senator Wong interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! In relation— Government senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my right! You are not assisting. She is answering the question in relation to increased debt, which was a part of the question— Senator Wong: Student debt, Mr President. The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Ian Macdonald: Mr President, I rise on a point of order. Is it appropriate for the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate to directly shout at you when you are making a ruling? Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my left! Senator Ian Macdonald: Mr President, there are some standards in this chamber, but you would not notice it from listening to this lot today—and I apologise to our esteemed guest. Senator Cameron interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Cameron, maybe I should ask Speaker Bercow to deal with you! Senator Macdonald, thank you for your point of order. Senator Ian Macdonald: Mr President, could the honourable Speaker take Senator Cameron back with him? The PRESIDENT: There is no point of order! Senator Ian Macdonald: Only I do not dislike the United Kingdom that much! Mr President, can I continue with my serious point of order? You would think the leader of the opposition would set a standard or an example; but she is actually arguing with you. I would suggest that you remove her from the chamber. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Macdonald, for your point of order, but I did not regard the leader of the opposition as shouting at me. I am about to rule on the point of order, which is that the minister has been relevant. She has 26 seconds to answer the question, and I do remind her of the two points to the question. Senator CASH: I will say, though, that in their submission to the Senate inquiry on higher education reform the Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation said that a nursing degree under a deregulated system would range from $24,000 to $34,000. Whilst this may or may not be right, what it certainly does is dispel the lies and the misinformation that have been spread by the other side that a degree would cost $100,000. (Time expired)