Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Leader of the Government in the Senate, Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service and Minister for Employment) (15:00): Once again, we have a proposition being put by the Australian Labor Party that government ministers should be determining the rate of pay. If the Labor Party did it for cleaners, why not for security guards, why not for the maintenance outside and why not for the Senate clerks? The answer is— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Cameron: Mr President, I rise on a point of order: on relevance. I have asked a clear question: how many cleaners are engaged under the contracts? When do the contracts expire? And how many will be vulnerable? The PRESIDENT: You might have jumped a little prematurely. Senator Abetz, I detected, was getting to that exact point and he has just over half of his time left to answer the question. Senator ABETZ: Thank you, Mr President. In relation to vulnerability, the question is: should the parliament and a minister by fiat determine what the rate of pay ought to be? Or should it be determined by the vote of workers or, in the event it cannot be resolved, by the Fair Work Commission? We believe the independent umpire should make the decision. I believe about a couple of dozen contracts are affected by Clean Start, noting that over 60 contracts already had the higher rates of pay anyway. (Time expired)