Mr EWEN JONES (Herbert) (10:32): I love the Labor Party! There has never been a layer of new or added red tape that they do not adopt wholly, solely and fully and use as a new base to grow that sector of regulation. We have heard all the talk about support for the ACNC, all coming from other levels of regulation. When Kevin Andrews first took this thing, he went around Australia. He came to Townsville and spoke to the people doing the work on the ground, the people delivering the work, the people filling out the forms, and explained to them what we were trying to achieve by getting rid of the ACNC. He had three forums in Townsville in one 24-hour period and there was not one dissenting hand. He asked them to put up their hand if they loved doing the paperwork, and no-one put their hand up. He asked who felt that the paperwork they were filling out was actually being read. It was horrendous the amount of work that they had to do. An organisation in Townsville—I will not embarrass them by naming them—had taken over two similar failing organisations: one in Ingham and one in Ayr, about an hour each side of Townsville. They sent in their return to the federal organisation and got a letter back saying that they had received only one return. They said: 'Yes, it is one return. We have three branches, but we are the one organisation.' They were told: 'No. You must produce a return for all three organisations.' They said, 'But the return would be exactly the same for the other two,' and they were told: 'That does not matter. You must supply them for all three.' So they had to photocopy it and send away another two copies with changes to the heading. This is what we have to deal with. The problem people on the ground have is that they know that these returns are not being read. They know all the information is going into a great big stockpile and they simply cannot get through all the detail. When I was in credit collection there was a story about a US finance company that for one 12-month period just approved absolutely everything. At the end of that period their delinquency rates were exactly the same as if they had applied all their credit scoring methods. This goes to prove that the great majority of people in every sector want to do the right thing. No matter what happens, no matter what level of security, no matter what level of red tape we apply, there are going to be people in every industry who will come in motivated to do the wrong thing. Should we penalise as the member for Wannon said? Should we put 63 kilograms in the saddlebags of absolutely every organisation, knowing that one in every thousand is going to do the wrong thing, or should we bring them all down to 49 kilograms, let them ride hands and heels all the way through to the winning post and do the best for their people? How best can our organisations deliver services to the people? Is it by providing to federal government departments information that is never going to be read, or is it going to be by serving the people on the ground, who deserve the support and the services. Mr Frydenberg: It's got to be freed up. Mr EWEN JONES: It has to be freed up. We have the member for Kooyong sitting right in front of me. He is working so hard to make sure that we get these things through and get rid of this red tape so that we can free people up to actually do what they want to do. No-one got into charity work, not-for-profit work, NGO work, supplying services to kids on the street or small business because they love red tape and want to fill out forms: 'I want to help some kids on the street by filling out a 47-page document! That's how I can best serve!' You find that the people who are up against this are the people who are getting paid to help them comply. The people who want the ACNC and more red tape in this field are the people who are being paid or whose job description is to help people work out how this form complies, where this form goes, how to do it properly and all that sort of stuff. This is what we have to stop. What we have to do is make sure the money that these people raise gets to the customer, to the person on the ground. Filling out red tape is taking another person away from what they want to do, be it the P&F at your school, Queensland Youth Services, an aged-care facility or anywhere. If your audit process is good enough for the state government, it should be good enough for us. We can just push it through and make it easier for people to provide services on the street. (Time expired)