Mr IAN MACFARLANE (Groom—Minister for Industry) (14:55): I am delighted to answer this question. There is no doubt that the loans are interest free. It gives me an opportunity to highlight the great regard and delight from industry in relation to the trade support loans. The loans, as the shadow minister knows, are indexed annually with CPI. These loans will offer apprentices the opportunity to receive, over four years, $20,000 which they can use for whatever purpose they like. Ms Bird: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order: relevance. I point the industry minister to the words in the budget paper, which say 'concessional interest rate'. The SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The member will resume her seat. Mr IAN MACFARLANE: Perhaps, for the shadow minister, I need to repeat: the loans are adjusted with CPI. She may view that as an interest adjustment. Actually, what is happening is the loans are maintaining their real value year-on-year. It does not detract from the fact— Honourable members interjecting— Mr IAN MACFARLANE: That is exactly right. The reality is that, on CPI, the indexation will be, on current Reserve Bank estimates, between 2½ and three per cent. Those over there, who we know have no understanding of money and finance, may like to equate that to an interest-rate. If they do, it is still more than half the interest-rate for other loans. The reality is that the value of trade support loans in the hands of the apprentice, where they finish their four years, is estimated to be in excess of $12,500, more than double the tools for the trade.