Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Finance, Minister for Trade, Tourism and Investment, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:11): I thank Senator Sterle for his question. Indeed, our ambition is to ensure that Australian workers on the whole are better off and in fact that there are more Australian workers as a result of the types of reforms that our government seeks to bring forward. That is the crucial part of the challenge we face at present, coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic—that we make sure that we get more Australians into jobs once again. The recovery has begun, the comeback has begun, but it has a way to go. The PRESIDENT: Senator Watt, on a point of order? Senator Watt: It is on relevance. The question wasn't about whether workers on the whole would be better off; the question was about whether every worker would be better off or whether no worker would be worse off. The PRESIDENT: I have allowed you to restate the question, Senator Watt, and I will listen carefully to the minister. To be directly relevant to this question, an answer would be strictly defined by discussion of the bills that were introduced and were the subject of this, and I will listen carefully. I can't instruct him how to answer a question. I heard interjections asking for a one-word answer. It is not appropriate for me to attempt to instruct an answerer of a question. But I will listen very carefully to the minister continuing. Senator Birmingham. Senator BIRMINGHAM: At the height of the pandemic, our government sought to bring together unions and employers to engage in discussions around workplace relations legislation in the spirit of cooperation, not conflict. I thank all of those parties who came together. Our government is grateful for the cooperation that has been shown during the pandemic, for the engagement through those processes. Even though getting universal agreement to every issue of course proved immensely challenging, we welcomed the fact parties came together. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator Wong: My point of order is on direct relevance. The minister has had over a minute—and a point of order on relevance—and he was asked whether he can confirm no worker will be worse off. Like the Prime Minister, he is avoiding the question, which is telling in itself. I would ask him to return to the question. The PRESIDENT: I am listening to the minister. He was turning to the bills, the direct topic. I cannot instruct him to answer a question in specific terms. If, however, he is narrowly speaking about this particular piece of proposed legislation, then I do consider that directly relevant, because the question is about that particular piece of legislation—obviously, without foreshadowing something on the Notice Paper. I call Senator Birmingham to continue. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Our approach and our spirit in this has been to try and achieve cooperation as to how reform can best be achieved to get the most number of Australians into employment and into jobs. Those opposite clearly already want to choose the path of conflict. We have chosen the path of cooperation. In relation to the better off overall test, the same two tests that currently apply will continue. The PRESIDENT: Senator Watt, on a point of order? Senator Watt: It is on relevance. This is the fourth time we have asked the minister to confirm that no worker will be worse off. It's a pretty simple question. The PRESIDENT: Senator Watt, the minister was actually talking about tests contained in the announcement at that point. I do consider that to be directly relevant, even if it's not in the terms the opposition would like. There's an opportunity after question time to debate the answer. Senator BIRMINGHAM: As I was saying, in relation to the better off overall test, the same two terms that the opposition put in place when they were in government will apply in the future—that is, the majority of employees needing to agree and, of course, the independent umpire, the Fair Work Commission, signing off on any EAs. The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Birmingham. Senator Sterle, a supplementary question?