Senator CORMANN (Western Australia—Minister for Finance, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:54): 'If people fail to come to an arrangement to settle their debts, the government has a responsibility to taxpayers to recover that money'— Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my left. I'd like to hear the minister's answer. Senator CORMANN: I hear the outrage about that quote. That is a quote not from anyone on this side of the chamber but from Tanya Plibersek on 29 June 2011. Tanya Plibersek said, 'If people fail to come to an arrangement to settle their debts, the government has a'— The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Cormann. Senator Keneally, on a point of order? Senator Keneally: Direct relevance, Mr President. I asked about the illegal robodebt scheme designed by Mr Morrison. He is quoting something that predates Mr Morrison's illegal scheme. I draw him back to the point of the question and ask him to direct his answer to that. The PRESIDENT: I'm happy to rule on the point of order. Senator Keneally, the question had a substantial preamble. The minister was 20 seconds in. I could barely hear his answer, although I did hear the quote that you're objecting to. I'm listening carefully, but I do believe that is directly relevant to the substance of the question asked. I ask Senator Cormann to continue. Senator CORMANN: Thank you very much, Mr President. Further: The automation of this process will free up resources and result in more people being referred to the tax garnishee process, retrieving more outstanding debt on behalf of taxpayers. That is Bill Shorten. It is important that the Government explores different means of debt recovery to ensure that those who have received more money than they are entitled to repay their debt. That was Chris Bowen. The government has acknowledged— Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my left. Senator CORMANN: The government has acknowledged that the income averaging that was used was not an appropriate way to recover those debts, and that is why the government will commence refunding eligible debts from July 2020 and will continue through the 2020-21 financial year. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator Wong: Mr President, my point of order is direct relevance. The minister was asked whether or not the government now accepts it was wrong— Senator Rennick interjecting— Senator Wong: Sorry, Senator Rennick. Would you like me to give you leave to speak? The PRESIDENT: Order! Interjections are always disorderly. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! I don't think anyone in the Senate has a halo when it comes to interjections. Everyone should cease. Senator Wong. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! There are interjections coming from all around the chamber. As I said, no-one has a halo. I urge those who are well practised to cease. Senator Wong: It's always such an interesting experience when he does. Mr President, Nadia Sievewright's case has been raised with the opposition. We asked whether it was wrong to illegally hound vulnerable Australians, like Nadia, to the point of desperation. I understand there are politics at play. The minister has had his fun quoting Labor people about a different scheme, but I ask him to be directly relevant to that issue. She deserves an answer. The PRESIDENT: I say on the point of order that I'm not in a position at this point in this chair to make a ruling on whether something was part of a particular program. The question asked the minister for information. In my view, the information he was responding to that with is directly relevant and does directly address the question. There is an opportunity to debate this matter after question time. Senators can avail themselves of that. Senator Cormann. Senator CORMANN: Thank you very much, Mr President. As Ms Plibersek and Mr Bowen said, the government has a responsibility to recover debts where people have been overpaid and, as Mr Shorten said, the automation of this process will free up resources. I also should say that, of course, the government recognises that the recovery of debt has to be done in a way that is lawful and that is why the government has made the decisions it has since announced. The PRESIDENT: Senator Keneally, a supplementary question?