Senator BRANDIS (Queensland—Attorney-General, Vice-President of the Executive Council and Leader of the Government in the Senate) (14:22): Senator McKim, not only is your assertion absolutely false but your own role in relation to Manus Island has been despicable and contemptible. You went up to Manus Island with TV cameras in tow for the explicit purpose of fomenting violence—that's what you did. The PRESIDENT: Senator Brandis, have you concluded your answer? Senator BRANDIS: No. The PRESIDENT: Senator McKim on a point of order? Senator McKim: Mr President, I know that you were taking a note at the time, but the Attorney is attributing to me motivations which not only are completely untrue but ignore the fact that the men on Manus Island have agency and capacity and the right to make their own decisions about their future, much as he might not like that. The PRESIDENT: Senator McKim, a point of order is not a chance to restate the question. I did not hear Senator Brandis. If I am incorrect, I'll come back to the chamber and provide that advice. But it was a question with, I might say, emotional phrasing, which tends to lead to emotional responses. Senator Di Natale on the point of order? Senator Di Natale: The Attorney-General made some extraordinary allegations against Senator McKim. Government senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order on my right! Senator Di Natale has the call. Order! Senator Di Natale: Senator Brandis very clearly stated that Senator McKim's motives for going over to Manus Island were to incite violence. That is a very, very serious allegation for the Attorney-General to make. All of us in this chamber heard it. I ask the Attorney-General to stand up and withdraw. The PRESIDENT: On the point of order, Senator Brandis? Senator BRANDIS: On the point of order, the very allegation I make about Senator McKim is the very allegation he has made against the Australian government. It was Senator McKim, not me, who used the phrase, 'Don't you have blood on your hands?' It was Senator McKim who made the allegation of torture. It does not lie with you, Senator Di Natale, to demand that I withdraw an allegation against Senator McKim, which your own spokesman has just made against me and every one of my colleagues. The PRESIDENT: Senator Di Natale, are you seeking the call again on the point of order? Senator Di Natale: Yes, I am seeking the call again on a point of order. I would ask you to rule on my point of order. The PRESIDENT: I am willing to rule— Senator Di Natale: The Attorney-General is entitled to take his own point of order. He can challenge Amnesty International for alleging that what is going on is torture—he can challenge that—but we are not going to descend into schoolyard tactics where you believe that an inappropriate allegation can be made on the basis of something that you're offended by. The PRESIDENT: Senator Di Natale, I agreed to give you, as the leader of your party, the chance to be heard a second time on the point of order. I did not hear it in the way it has been characterised. The question was asked with very emotive language. That tends to provoke a somewhat emotive response. If I am incorrect, I will review the Hansard and come back to the chamber, but I'm not going to rule what Senator Brandis said out of order with my incomplete knowledge. Senator Di Natale, are you rising on a point of order? Senator Di Natale: I know it's very early in your presidency, so we are prepared for you to go away and read the Hansard. But the allegation was clear, it was explicit, and everybody in this chamber heard it, and I'd ask that you go and review the Hansard. The PRESIDENT: Senator Di Natale, I have said that I will review the Hansard and come back to the chamber if it is recorded differently to that which I recall. There is no further discussion on this point of order. Senator BRANDIS: Senator McKim, let us be very clear: the people with blood on their hands are the people who stood by and turned a blind eye when 1,200 or more men, women and children drowned because the previous Labor government, with your connivance and at your sufferance, lost control of Australia's borders. Those are the people with blood on their hands. Senator Di Natale, you did go to Manus Island to foment violence, and you should be ashamed of yourself. The PRESIDENT: Are you rising on a point of order, Senator Di Natale? Senator Di Natale: You certainly heard it that time. You're not doing your job if you didn't hear it that time, Mr President. Senator Wong: Mr President— The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, I'll let Senator Di Natale continue and then I'll call you. Senator Di Natale: In point of fact, I haven't been to Manus Island; it was Senator McKim. The PRESIDENT: It's not a time for points of fact, Senator Di Natale. If you've got a point of order— Senator Di Natale: The accusation was made that I personally went to Manus Island and that I went with the express intent of trying to generate and foment violence. I'd ask the Attorney-General to withdraw that allegation. The PRESIDENT: Senator Brandis, on this point? Senator BRANDIS: That was an intended reference to Senator McKim. If the reference was accidentally made to Senator Di Natale, it was not directed at you, Senator Di Natale; it was directed to Senator McKim. The PRESIDENT: Senator Di Natale, I'm going to go to Senator Bernardi, because you've been on your feet a bit in the last couple of minutes, and then I'll come back to you. Senator Bernardi: This is on a different point of order. The PRESIDENT: Okay. I'll go back to Senator Di Natale on that basis. Senator Di Natale: Now we've heard the allegation. I'm sure you heard it, Mr President. I ask the Attorney-General to withdraw any imputation that Senator McKim went to Manus Island with the intent of fomenting violence on Manus Island. The PRESIDENT: Senator Wong, on the point of order? Senator Wong: I appreciate that this is Senator Di Natale's point of order. The President has ruled against the senator and has said— An honourable senator interjecting— Senator Wong: I'm sorry; I think it is reasonable for the President to do as he has indicated, which is commonplace, and that is to go away and consider the Hansard and consider the point of order in that light. The PRESIDENT: I will go to Senator Hinch, who has previously sought the call, and then to Senator Brandis. Senator Hinch: On the point of order: the Attorney-General, with a slip of the tongue, did say that Senator Di Natale had gone to Manus Island and that he has withdrawn. Senator BRANDIS: On the point order: when you consider the point of order, Mr President, no language I used was unparliamentary, and it is not a reflection within the meaning of the standard orders to impute a motive to a senator for ostensible public conduct. The PRESIDENT: On the point of order: Senator Di Natale, I will review the Hansard, as I stated earlier. Motives are assigned in debate in this chamber on many occasions. This is an emotive issue, I appreciate. The question was asked in an emotive fashion and provoked a response. I will review the Hansardand come back to the chamber if it warrants a correction from the chair. Senator Bernardi: Mr President, I just seek your ruling about whether it is parliamentary for Senator McKim to repeatedly direct at the Attorney-General the term, 'You are a monster.' And, if it's unparliamentary, would you ask him to withdraw? The PRESIDENT: As all senators should know, there should be nothing directed at another colleague in the chamber. It should be directed through the chair. I suppose that someone may want to call someone else a monster through me! But all comments should actually be directed through the chair rather than across the chamber directly at other senators.