Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Education and Training) (14:22): Base load despatchable energy—base load energy that's there when you need it, as you need it—is not solar and wind, as Senator Di Natale neatly summarised it; that's not at all the case. It is about how you guarantee the energy is there when you need it. For all the good things about renewables, you cannot guarantee solar and wind will be there when you need them. Senator McKim: Hydro says hello. You have no idea. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Hydro! This is exactly why the Turnbull government is getting on with looking at pumped hydro projects, ensuring we can deliver reliable energy. We have seen in states like mine that have gone down the pathway of an overreliance on renewables—South Australia and your home state as well, Senator Di Natale— Senator Hinch: On a point of order, Mr President: I would actually like to hear the minister's response. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Hinch. I remind all senators that interjections are disorderly. It's only fair that we all get to hear the answers as well as the questions, so I would ask all senators to refrain from making additional noise and interjecting, which is disorderly. Senator BIRMINGHAM: AEMO highlights that in South Australia and Victoria, where state governments have pursued more aggressive renewable targets and where we have seen the closure of base load plants, there is a higher risk to reliability than elsewhere in the market—that's the reality and it is a reality we are trying to address and fix. It certainly won't be fixed by your narrow solutions. (Time expired)