Senator PAYNE (New South Wales—Minister for Defence) (14:03): Unfortunately Senator Conroy's efforts to mischaracterise the statement I made in the Senate in 2015 are completely without foundation. It is a statement of fact that the longer you extend the life of a capability the more it involves greater sustainment costs. They become more expensive to maintain. It does mean that their relative capability declines as newer submarines enter service within our region. That is a statement of fact. Senator Brandis: That's obvious. Senator PAYNE: That is a statement of the obvious—indeed, Senator Brandis. The work that we are doing to commence the competitive evaluation process is something that was not done on the other side. That is what would have left Australia with a capability gap.