Senator BRANDIS (Queensland—Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate, Vice-President of the Executive Council, Minister for Arts and Attorney-General) (14:13): Senator Cameron, I assume your question is based on the report in The Australian newspaper this morning and the documents referred to in that report. Senator Cameron, nothing in that report and nothing in those documents supports the assertion that you and Senator Conroy in your invincible ignorance have made that there was coaching. There was no coaching whatsoever. What you fail to understand, Senator Cameron, is that Ms Jackson approached the royal commission with information, and in the ordinary course of events, as is the case with every witness who approaches a royal commission with information, that witness is interviewed. That is utterly orthodox and entirely appropriate—for a witness who approaches a royal commission with information to be interviewed. Furthermore, Senator Cameron, it is absolutely appropriate and absolutely— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Cameron: Mr President, on a point of order on relevance: I was asking about coaching. Coaching is what happened, and the minister should go to the question of coaching and how it applies to rule 24 of the Law Council's conduct rules. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Cameron. The minister has been directly relevant to the question. Minister. Senator BRANDIS: Senator Cameron, as I pointed out to you, there was no coaching whatsoever. Nothing in either the press report or the documents supports that proposition. Senator Cameron— Senator Wong interjecting— Senator BRANDIS: Senator Wong, I know you were a CFMEU official. I know you have got a lot in it to defend here, but let me turn to your colleague Senator Cameron. The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Abetz: Mr President, I rise on a point of order. Could you please protect me from industrial deafness. Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Before we continue: the noise level is unacceptable; it is completely unacceptable. Senator Conroy interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! You too, Senator Conroy. Senator BRANDIS: Senator Cameron, for staff of a royal commission to interview a witness is not coaching. For staff of a royal commission to give an indication to a witness as to the scope of questions— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Cameron: Mr President, again a point of order on relevance. I have asked: how is providing Ms Jackson with advice on the content of a question brief at an upcoming hearing consistent with the rule? He has not gone to that issue, and the minister should go to that issue. You should draw his attention to the question. The PRESIDENT: Senator Cameron, I believe the minister has been directly relevant. He has referred to the aspects of your question in relation to coaching. Minister, you have the call. Senator BRANDIS: For staff of a royal commission to give a witness an indication of the topics that will be covered in their examination is not coaching. Not only is it not coaching; it is utterly orthodox. When Mr Shorten—by the way, Senator Cameron, who did not approach the royal commission in a helpful way to offer information—was called as a witness before the royal commission— (Time expired) Senator Conroy: You really stuffed up then, George. Oh, no! You stuffed that up. The PRESIDENT: Order on my left. Senator Conroy: That is a very serious allegation he just made. I ask you to make him withdraw that. It is a very serious allegation he just made against the Leader of the Opposition. The PRESIDENT: I have not heard any allegation. Senator Conroy: It is a very serious allegation. The PRESIDENT: Senator Brandis, I did not hear any allegation that you made about the Leader of the Opposition—but if you could assist. Senator Brandis: Mr President, not only did I not make an allegation against Mr Shorten— Senator Conroy: Yes, like last time— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Conroy! Senator Brandis: I did not actually have the opportunity to finish my sentence. Senator Jacinta Collins: You said he was unhelpful. Senator Conroy: You actually said that. Senator Jacinta Collins: He's a liar! Senator Conroy: That is a reflection. The PRESIDENT: I am sorry, Senator Conroy. If the words were 'he was unhelpful', I do not see that necessarily as a reflection on— Senator Conroy: It is an absolute reflection. The PRESIDENT: I am sorry— Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! I am happy to review Hansard and I am happy to take advice. Senator Conroy: It is the context in which he said it. The PRESIDENT: I agree with context, Senator Conroy. I am happy to take advice. I cannot have points of order and I cannot debate this issue with individual senators. I am going to do this orderly. Senator Colbeck is on his feet, seeking a point of order—I assume, Senator Colbeck? Senator Colbeck: Mr President, I do seek a point of order. I might ask Senator Collins to withdraw her remark. Senator Jacinta Collins: Which? Government senators: You yelled out 'liar'. Senator Colbeck: Senator Collins should withdraw. She made a reflection on the Attorney. The circumstances around it are irrelevant. Senator Collins should withdraw. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! On the point of order—we are going to do this orderly—Senator Conroy. Senator Conroy: Thank you. Senator Brandis a few weeks ago reflected across the chamber. You heard him and commented on it the next day. He stood up and denied he had even made the statements that you heard. So this is a man that is not worthy of being protected by the chair, and you should seek to get him to withdraw and you should dismiss that absolutely irrelevant point from Senator Colbeck. The PRESIDENT: I will determine, Senator Conroy, what is relevant and what is not relevant. Senator Conroy: You heard him! The PRESIDENT: Order! I am deliberating on the points of order. I will make a decision at the end of the points of order. Senator Bernardi, a further point of order. Senator Bernardi: Mr President, in support of this point of order, Senator Collins used most unparliamentary language with respect to Senator Brandis. Many of us heard it. It is incumbent upon the decency of Senator Collins to withdraw it. That is all that is required. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Bernardi. Senator Collins. Senator Jacinta Collins: I will withdraw. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Collins. Senator Wong, on the same point of order? Senator Wong: Mr President, I rise on Senator Conroy's point of order and the request that the Attorney do the right thing, as Senator Collins has just done, and withdraw. The inference, as I understand it, that Senator Conroy and the opposition are concerned about is an inference about the conduct of Mr Shorten at a royal commission. That is a much more serious inference than a general proposition about whether someone is being helpful or not helpful. It goes directly to his conduct as a witness. I would invite the Attorney to do the right thing and withdraw. Senator Conroy interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Conroy, you have spoken. In relation to your matter, Senator Conroy, where you mention matters of the last sitting session, that is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this particular point of order. So I will dismiss that out of hand. The matter that Senator Colbeck has raised has been dealt with and there is no further action required there. What I heard from what Senator Brandis said—and I take what you are saying about context, Senator Wong and Senator Conroy—about him being an unhelpful witness—and I am not saying they were the exact words—I have discussed this matter with the Clerk in the moments I have had. We cannot find anything that is unparliamentary in that. Senator Conroy: It is a reflection. The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Conroy. So I will now leave this in the hands of the Attorney-General, because with the noise in the chamber it is very difficult to hear the exact context— Senator Jacinta Collins: He is the law officer of the land. The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Collins—of how this matter was portrayed. Senator Brandis, if you believe there is anything that was unparliamentary, I will invite you to address that issue; otherwise, we will move on. I am happy to go back and review whatever transcript and whatever audio visual I can, and if there is anything that I determine then that is unparliamentary I am very happy to come back to the chamber. I am happy, Senator Wong or Senator Conroy, if you wish to make a response, but that is how I see it at the moment. Senator Conroy interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Okay. Attorney-General, is there anything you wish to add? Senator Conroy: Just gutless! The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Conroy. Senator Brandis: Mr President, I do not understand you to have ruled that the word 'unhelpful' is unparliamentary. The PRESIDENT: Correct. Senator Brandis: I do not consider it to be unparliamentary. I do make that observation and I stick by it. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, but I will add for clarity that it is quite clear in Odgers and the standing orders that it is not necessarily just the word that it is used, it is the context. What I am saying is that I cannot determine the context because I did not hear the entire context of what was said. Senator Moore: Mr President, on the point of order: I would ask you to talk with the Clerk about listening to the audio and to consider the reflection in the context of the term about the action at the royal commission. The PRESIDENT: I have indicated I will do that. Senator Moore: I request that you do that, Mr President. The PRESIDENT: I am going to do that, request or not. Can we move on in an orderly manner.