Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Leader of the Government in the Senate, Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service and Minister for Employment) (14:30): The only person I know who has actually engaged in the cutting of penalty rates was a particular union leader, who rejoiced in the name of Bill Shorten, who in 2006 dealt with the Cleanevent agreement in which there was no additional weekend or public holiday pay. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Point of order, Senator Moore. Senator Moore: Mr President, I rise on a point of order. It is on direct relevance. It was a very clear question. It was about whether the minister agrees with the Productivity Commission's proposal to cut penalty rates. It had no other question asked and I think it is important that we get to the question. The PRESIDENT: Thank you for your point of order, Senator Moore. I would remind the minister, although he has only just commenced his answer, of the question. Senator ABETZ: The point I was making was that the now Leader of the Opposition, Mr Shorten, has rolled into this chamber a frontbencher by the name of Senator Cameron to ask questions about penalty rates in circumstances when he was the architect of the removal of penalty rates in EBAs, be it in the cleaning industry, be it in the mushroom-picking industry or, indeed, which is quite apt, even in the circus industry—in the Cirque du Soleil—which was entered into— Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order, minister. Order, on my right! Senator Cameron, on a point of order. Senator Cameron: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. There was one question asked here: does the minister support the Productivity Commission's proposal to cut penalty rates? He has not got anywhere near that. We are not Cirque du Soleil—could you bring him back to the question. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Cameron. I will remind the minister of the question and advise the minister that he has one minute in which to answer the question. Senator ABETZ: If those opposite were not that anxious they would see the point that I was making, because there was also the Melbourne and Olympic Parks Trust agreement in 2001 and 2003, both signed by Mr Shorten. Honourable senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Order, minister. Order, on my right! Order, Senator Macdonald and you too, Senator Conroy. Order, both sides. Senator Wong, on a point of order. Senator Wong: Mr President, I raise, again, a point of order on direct relevance. There was one question: does the minister support the Productivity Commission's proposal to cut penalty rates for Australian workers on Sundays? There was one question and he has had a minute and 14 seconds. You have already drawn him to the question and he is just completely ignoring your indication from the chair and flouting the standing orders. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Wong. I will remind the minister of the question and advise him he has 46 seconds in which to answer the question. Senator ABETZ: On the basis of that very rich history of Mr Shorten's own activities in cutting penalty rates, it seems that the Productivity Commission may have gleaned something from Mr Shorten's own experiences of cutting penalty rates by making a suggestion, a suggestion which includes— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Order, minister. Senator Cameron, on a point of order. Senator Cameron: Mr President, I rise, again, on a point of order on relevance. You have drawn the minister's attention three times to this question. The minister is ignoring your observations about answering the question. He should be brought to the question. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Cameron. Again, I will remind the minister of the question and advise him that he has 23 seconds in which to answer. Senator ABETZ: Based on that rich history provided by Mr Shorten's own activities, the Productivity Commission has made a draft recommendation, a draft recommendation which suggests that the Fair Work Commission should make that determination. At all times, we have said the Fair Work Commission should make that determination and not union leaders like Mr Shorten— (Time expired)