Senator BRANDIS (Queensland—Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate, Vice-President of the Executive Council, Minister for Arts and Attorney-General) (14:08): The captain of the people smuggler vessel would be a very reliable witness, Senator O'Neill—a very reliable witness indeed! As a matter of fact, Senator O'Neill, if you want to know, there is only one political party under whose watch people smugglers grew rich in Indonesia, and it was under your watch, because under your watch 50,000 people journeyed to Australia, not including those who lost their lives— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Wong: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. I know that Senator Brandis is auditioning, but the question was about a serious issue— Senator Ian Macdonald: Which standing order? Senator Wong: relevance, thank you, Senator Macdonald—about an important issue of photographs which have been published in a major Australian newspaper and an interview which has also been published. He should respond to that issue. That is the question which has been asked. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Wong. I will remind the minister of the question. He has one minute and 31 seconds in which to answer. Senator BRANDIS: You know, Senator Wong, if I were you I would not be talking about photographs too readily, because we saw some pictures of the ABC television last night, Senator Wong, of you and those behind you, like Senator Stephen Conroy over there, which were— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Moore: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. Mr President, you have already reminded the minister of the question and again he has gone nowhere near the question in his response. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Moore. I will remind the minister of the question. The minister has one minute and 17 seconds in which to answer. Senator BRANDIS: Thank you, Mr President. Coming to your question, Senator O'Neill, over six years 50,000 illegal entrants, auspiced by people smugglers, who we know received an average fee of US$10,000—that is, US$500 million into the pockets of people smugglers over six years on your watch, on your party's watch, as a result of— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Conroy: Mr President, I rise on a point of order on relevance. The minister is now repeating the answer exactly, to the word almost, that you have already drawn to his attention is not answering the question. This is now the third attempt from this side of the chamber to ask him to comply with your ruling. So could you please call him to order on a point of relevance and ask him to answer the question? The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Conroy. I will remind the minister again of the question and remind the minister he has 46 seconds in which to answer the question. Senator BRANDIS: Thank you, Mr President. I was being asked a question about payments to people smugglers and I was making the point that the only payments that we have seen to people smugglers are the payments that were made as a result of the policies of the previous government—an average, by the way— The PRESIDENT: Pause the clock. Senator Kim Carr: Mr President, I rise on a point of order going to relevance. The minister was asked directly: will he confirm or deny the reports that were published in the paper this morning? That is the question. He has defied your ruling now on three occasions. I would ask you to draw him to actually answer the question. The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Carr. Minister, you have now had three quarters of the time allocated for the question. Minister, I cannot direct you how to answer the question, but I can ask you to be directly relevant to the question. Senator BRANDIS: Senator Carr, Kim Jong Un was kinder to his uncle than you were to Kevin Rudd! Coming directly to the question, there is only one political party that put money into the pockets of people smugglers—$500 million in six years—and that is the Australian Labor Party. Senator Wong: Mr President, I rise again on a point of relevance. I understand that in question time—and I hope the crossbenchers recognise this—there are times— Senator Ian Macdonald: Is this a point of order or are you— Senator Wong: Yes, the point of order is relevance, Senator Macdonald. Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Senator Macdonald, I determine points of order. Senator Ian Macdonald interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Macdonald! Senator Wong, you have the call. Senator Wong: We understand that ministers will speak on tangential matters in the lead-up to answering a question. This minister, serially, has defied your ruling. He has not once even attempted to pretend to answer the question. He might sit there smirking and thinking that this abuse of Senate question time is appropriate, but you, as President, should put a stop to it. The PRESIDENT: I will say that, in the last few seconds of the minister's answer, I believe that he was getting to the point, and he did indicate that there was only one side of politics that had paid people smugglers, which was directly relevant to the question. I will allow the minister to continue. Senator BRANDIS: I have nothing to add.