Senator STERLE (Western Australia) (15:10): I would like to contribute to the debate, but before I do I want to say that it is highly contentious for Senator Macdonald to throw those aspersions across at Foreign Minister Carr, who had a fantastic record as the leader of a very successful government in New South Wales. Senator Brandis: Pity it was corrupt—more corrupt than the Rum Corps, according to ICAC. Senator STERLE: It is very easy for mischievous senators to cast aspersions upon a great leader and, not only that, a very successful foreign minister. Senator Ian Macdonald: So none of this happened under Carr? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order on my left! Senator STERLE: Mr Deputy President, I wonder if Senator Macdonald and those over on that side would be brave enough to throw those accusations at business leaders. There are some fantastic and successful business leaders who, under their regimes, run very successful companies. But if there is a change of personnel at the top and something is not right or is illegal in that business, do you go back and blame the previous general manager or the previous CEO? It is absolutely ridiculous. I take offence when Senator Macdonald, who always goes the low road, revels in mud. Senator Macdonald loves to throw aspersions across the chamber at people's reputations, but he should be very careful because I remember the formative years of the Howard government when a number of ministers were removed. I do not know if you were here at the time, Senator Macdonald. I remember that when I came in you were a minister, but you did not last long—you got thrown out on your ear. That is another story, but I am happy to talk about that. It was quite hilarious, actually: the removal of Senator Macdonald with some of the incompetents on that side of the chamber. He was the only one that copped the axe between the eyes. But, Mr Deputy President, there is absolutely no credibility in throwing that. I think Senator Carr has the right to stand on his merits. Senator Ian Macdonald: I was a minister for nine years; you'll be a minister for no years. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order on my left! Senator STERLE: It is pretty brave to say things in here, Senator Macdonald. Take 30 steps out there and make the same accusations. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: To the chair, Senator Sterle! Senator STERLE: I am happy to take 30 steps out there and tell everyone how incompetent Senator Macdonald was as a minister when we had the issue of the Indonesian fishing expeditions and the trochus shell. Senator Brandis: Mr Deputy President, I raise a point of order. I am well aware of the latitude you allow in these debates, but might I point out to you that the motion moved by Senator Macdonald was that the Senate take note of the answer given by Senator Bob Carr to the question asked of him by Senator Fierravanti-Wells. A personal attack on Senator Ian Macdonald's very distinguished record of public service does not bear in any way upon the motion before the chair. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Brandis. Senator Sterle has been referring to the motion and he had returned to the subject at hand. I do draw his attention to the nature of the motion. Senator Sterle, you have the call. Senator STERLE: Thank you, Mr Deputy President. The Australian government has been very active in a number of regional and international forums and initiatives addressing corruption. With your indulgence, Mr Deputy President, I will name a couple of the initiatives and forums that the government is heavily involved in in our region: the United Nations Convention against Corruption, ratified by Australia on 7 December 2005, and the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime, ratified by Australia on 27 May 2004. Foreign Minister Carr is very active in implementing these forums and initiatives. He makes a fantastic contribution and is a tremendous representative for the Australian people. Another one is the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions. No-one in this chamber—from this side especially—would ever, ever endorse or condone corruption. There is absolutely no argument. We have a number of initiatives. I remember in Western Australia we— Senator Brandis: What? Senator Ian Macdonald: What about the HSU? What about Craig Thomson? The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order on my left! Senator Sterle, you have the call. Senator STERLE: Thank you, Mr Deputy President. Under the leadership of the Gallop government, the Corruption and Crime Commission was introduced in Western Australia. It does not mean that there are not a heap of frivolous cases taken there. I note that there have been a number of frivolous cases—I will say 'frivolous', because it has just tied up so much taxpayer money—where accusations have been made, people's reputations have been trashed and there have been no charges. But for the opposition to sit there in question time and try and accuse Senator Carr of being somehow engaged in inappropriate behaviour is nothing short of diabolical. Through you, Mr Deputy President, I reiterate this: if you have something to say on that side, take 30 brave steps to your right and say it outside the chamber. Senator Macdonald will not say it. He is protected in here. I still will not retract mine: he was removed as the minister, so he was not even that good then. (Time expired)