Senator FURNER (Queensland) (16:17): I rise this afternoon to contribute to this debate as well. I guess the one thing I agree with Senator Back on is the eminence of the group of those who made up the panel to bring about an end to this particular situation that we have had, and we have had it for many years. Even under the coalition there were issues with boat arrivals, so it is not a case of being solely an issue that this government has had to deal with. When you look at the report there are certainly signposts that indicate the problems in dealing with this particular issue. One is the range of disincentives to discourage irregular and dangerous maritime travel to Australia. If we put a stop to that we have done our job as a parliament. I am pleased that the coalition has finally seen through the opportunity to come on board— Senator Brandis: You've adopted our policy, you clown! The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order, Senator Brandis! Senator FURNER: rather than being belligerent, like they have been over the last several years, and come to a compromise with us, as we have had to compromise as well. Senator Brandis interjecting— Senator FURNER: You do not have your TPVs or your 'turn back the boats' policies, either, Senator Brandis, so do not worry about that. You go on about your three-pillar policy; you should really read the evidence around the issues associated with turning boats back. I will get to that in a minute, because there are major issues in turning boats back. It is not as simple as Abbott picking up the phone—that was the policy of Mr Abbott some years ago: claiming that he could pick up some phone and decide on how a captain of a patrol boat should operate dealing with illegal immigrants. Instead of individuals reaching out for help, the coalition sees desperate asylum seekers as figures, statistics and numbers they can flaunt in the media. Senator Jacinta Collins interjecting— Senator FURNER: That is correct, Senator Collins. This is exactly what their policy on turning the boats back is. Turning boats around is unsafe. I note that the member for Cook claimed in his opening address on this that Air Vice Marshal Houston has 'belled the cat'. What a load of nonsense. There is no cat that has been belled in this outcome of our government compromising on a solution to stop asylum seekers boarding dangerous ships and travelling to our shores. There has been a litany of examples provided at Senate estimates. I know Senator Brandis as a conscientious senator appears at many of the Senate estimates, at the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, and raises many issues along with many of the other senators opposite us here. I am sure they have heard the evidence that has been provided by the public servants from many of the departments and also the Chief of Navy of the risks of turning boats back on our seas. I will get to some of those risks in a short while. In September last year Minister Bowen explained in the Australian three reasons why the coalition's policy of turning around boats was not viable. First of all was that Indonesia did not support it. That has been a position that Indonesia has taken for some time. We have built up a healthy dialogue with that particular country and with that government and we know that if this policy were enforced by the coalition our relationship with Indonesia would be jeopardised to the extent that our relationship would deteriorate. It is only as a result of this government building up that rapport with that country that we have been able to address some of the issues around boat arrivals. We have sent people over there to address particular problems, supplied machinery in maritime assistance and provided education to address some of the issues associated with boats coming to our shores. As for the Indonesians, Brigadier General Agung Sabar Santoso of the national police said: It will certainly affect relations if (Australia) turns boats away … He also said: We don't want them to die at sea. You can imagine that there are children and women as well. We have experienced those sad situations where there have, unfortunately, been deaths at sea. Here we have the Indonesians concurring with that position—that turning back the boats will not work. The second major issue, as I mentioned before, is that it is unsafe. We do not want to see people injured and we definitely do not want to see people lose their lives at sea. That also goes for our brave men and women aboard the Armidale class patrol boats. I have personally been on one of those boats, up in Darwin in 2009, and have seen the good work they do. I know, Senator Humphries, you have done a lot of parliamentary defence programs as well, probably as many as I have— Senator Humphries: Probably more. Senator FURNER: and it is a great opportunity to understand what our men and women have concerns about in turning boats back. In fact, Senator Humphries, on that same trip I was on, one of your opposition lower house members asked, quite rightly, whether it would work. The response he got was, 'No, it won't work, because we know from history that it's unsafe.' The report of the Expert Panel on Asylum Seekers explained some of the issues associated with it when you were in government. There were about 12 interceptions, and eight of those occasions could be termed 'miserable excuses for a success'. On four of those eight occasions, asylum-seeker boats were successfully intercepted and escorted or towed back to international waters, in the direction of Indonesian territorial waters. Although successful, those four operations included the following incidents: on two occasions, Royal Australian Navy personnel had to undertake repairs to the boat engines in order to be able to turn back those boats; and, on the other two occasions, asylum seekers jumped overboard. Is that the situation you want, where our Royal Australian Navy personnel have to repair the engines of boats that have been damaged as a result of these asylum seekers being so desperate to be rescued, to come to our shores, that they then—the second point made in the panel report—jump overboard? Let us not forget the unfortunate situation that occurred in Darwin, where asylum seekers set fire to boats. That is the sort of desperate thing that occurs when you send that message, 'Let's turn the boats back.' It does not work. On the other four occasions out of the eight interceptions, either the boats became unseaworthy at some point during the interception or turn-back operation, or non-compliant behaviour by the asylum seekers made the attempt unsustainable, and those asylum seekers ended up at Christmas Island anyway. That is the evidence from the past on this policy of turning boats back—your three planks of policy. It just does not work. When are you going to get it? I do not think you will ever get it. Then you went to temporary protection visas. Let us have a look at what happened. Let us look at the truth and shine a light on what you guys failed to do. You made out that TPVs were this golden way to stop people coming here. Well, they did not stop people coming here. They did not stop the boats; they did not turn them around. The number of women and children getting onto boats actually increased when you introduced TPVs, and the restrictions that these visas imposed on asylum seekers were unjust and hindered their ability to carry out normal lives. In fact, former immigration minister Chris Evans said in 2008: Under the unjust regime set up by the previous government, unauthorised arrivals who were owed protection under Australia’s international obligations were only eligible for TPVs in the first instance. It meant that refugees had no travel rights, reduced access to refugee settlement services such as English language programs, employment and income assistance, and could not be reunited with other family members. Minister Evans also said: The Temporary Protection visa was one of the worst aspects of the Howard government’s punitive treatment of refugees, many of whom had suffered enormously before fleeing to Australia. This is clear evidence that the TPV arrangements did nothing to prevent unauthorised boat arrivals. In fact, illegal arrival numbers increased not long after the regime was introduced. Furthermore, if you want to know what happened as a result, as Peter van Onselen said in the Australian, the paper that those opposite often rely on, on 26 June 2012: More than 95 per cent— that is 95 per cent— of TPV holders who were irregular maritime arrivals went on to get a permanent visa to live in Australia. That is also reflected in the Houston report, so you cannot deny that. Once again, you need to study the evidence to make sure what you are saying actually occurred. (Time expired)