Mr SHORTEN (Maribyrnong—Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme and Minister for Government Services) (14:11): I thank the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I did have one prepared about honesty and government in my portfolio. The royal commission into robodebt reflects, I think, one of the low points of honesty by a government, and in our portfolio now we are cleaning up the mess. But one important point which goes to— Ms Ley: Welcome back to the dispatch box, Bill. Mr SHORTEN: Thanks for the robodebt question, Sussan. One important point which goes to this question of honesty in government is really this: there have been a lot of witness statements given by a lot of victims of robodebt in the royal commission and they do make harrowing reading. I'm not sure that the member— Mr Fletcher: Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The SPEAKER: Manager Opposition Business, the question was so broad in terms of honesty and the minister's responsibilities. He is in order, but I'll hear from you. Mr Fletcher: It goes to relevance. It was a question about franking credits and this minister's track record. If he can't answer it, he should sit down. The SPEAKER: Resume your seat. To reflect about his portfolio, I'll give him the call. He is in order. You've asked the question. It was very broad. The minister is in order. Mr SHORTEN: The robodebt royal commission is casting a light on matters which haven't been dealt with before the royal commission. The members opposite, I think, are aware that for 4½ years there was an unlawful scheme raised—an unlawful scheme. And as much as the members opposite don't like to talk about the robodebt royal commission, part of the reason why we are having the royal commission is for 4 ½ years the then government did everything they could to bury the truth. We have heard in a number of question times—oh, my goodness. Mr Fletcher: Mr Speaker, you've been very clear on your rulings when it comes to the royal commission that the minister is not entitled to draw conclusions. He is only entitled to refer specifically to evidence. He has been a serial offender on that. He is offending again, and I ask that you direct him back to your ruling. Mr Burke: As the Manager of Opposition Business and members of the opposition know, the question they've asked goes to all areas of honesty across the portfolio. That is what the question goes to. So, therefore, drawing on material about that doesn't have to draw on whether or not there will be a particular conclusion from the royal commission. The question of those opposite has given us a much broader way of asking those questions. The SPEAKER: You may resume your seat. We just need to get through this. I give the call to the minister. Do not reflect on findings within the royal commission; proceed with your answer. Mr SHORTEN: The robodebt royal commission is necessary because, after 4½ years of breaking the law, the old government never actually explained how it happened. We've had the harrowing statements from witnesses. We've had countless statements from victims. At last count, there were about 400,000 victims of the previous government's illegality. This goes very much to the honesty of services. In the royal commission, the evidence has come through, and it tells a terrible story. But the reason we're having the royal commission, and the reason why members of parliament should listen carefully to some of the stories that we're hearing now, is that it went on for 4½ years. I don't think any government is immune from making mistakes. I understand that. But surely we need to have the conversation both on this side of the House and on that side of the House. How could you keep breaking the law? That's not a matter for the royal commission. The Commonwealth solicitor said the scheme was unlawful. That's already a fact. But has anyone on that side stopped to think, 'How did we keep breaking the law for 4½ years?' Coalition members may see this as just a partisan issue, but, if we don't understand why it happened and how it happened, so far what we've had is a lot of people saying, 'I don't recall.' But I contrast the honesty of the victims who are bravely retelling their stories with the cowardice of the— (Time expired)