Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Finance, Leader of the Government in the Senate and Vice-President of the Executive Council) (14:33): I thank Senator McCarthy for the question. The member for Bass is somebody whom I consider to be a good friend and who I know is a powerful advocate for her community, and she brings strong principles and strong opinions to this place. She, like many on this side of the chamber and all across the chamber, brings strong principles and strong opinions to her service. Now, like all parties, obviously, when people are looking to differ, then discussions are had, ideally, around those differences. On our side, ultimately, as Ms Archer did on that occasion, she was free as a Liberal Party MP to not necessarily vote— The PRESIDENT: Senator McCarthy, on a point of order? Senator McCarthy: I rise on a point of order on relevance: the question is directly asking: 'Is Mr Morrison aware of who the staffer is?' The PRESIDENT: I have been listening to the minister. I'm not prepared to rule that he was not being directly relevant. I am listening carefully. Minister, you have the call. Senator BIRMINGHAM: Thanks, Mr President. As I was saying, in all parties you would expect to have those discussions. In the Labor Party if you were having such a discussion it would, of course, be an expulsion discussion. In our party, if you were having such a discussion— The PRESIDENT: Minister, resume your seat. Senator Wong, on a point of order? Senator Wong: Yes, it is a point of direct relevance. Senator McCarthy asked about public reports that Ms Archer said that she felt bullied, threatened and intimidated by prime ministerial staffers prior to the vote. So I put it to you that a reference to what happens after a vote is actually not relevant to the question. This is about activity or alleged behaviour by prime ministerial staff in the lead-up to a vote. The PRESIDENT: Senator Canavan, on the point of order? Senator Canavan: On the point of order: that's not what the minister was saying. He was clearly talking about the discussions that would happen before a vote—as he mentioned, an expulsion discussion. That would be the case, Labor Party. The question clearly goes to the appropriateness of discussions around a vote. Therefore, bringing in how that would be dealt with in other political parties, with other senators and members of this place, is clearly relevant to that question. Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! Senator Wong has had the opportunity to bring the minister back to the question. I'm listening carefully to the answer. I cannot direct a minister how to answer a question. Minister, you have the call. Senator BIRMINGHAM: The point that I was making is that robust discussions are had in this place. They are had right here in the chamber about people's positions in relation to bills and votes. They are had in offices across the building about people's positions in relation to bills and votes. Only one side of politics has a structural threat in place as part of their rules that says very clearly in terms of the threat: 'If you go against us, you're out of here'. That is not what happens in our party. But, of course, discussions are had. (Time expired) Opposition senators interjecting— The PRESIDENT: Order! I will not give Senator McCarthy the call until there is order in the chamber. Senator McCarthy, you have the call for a supplementary question.