Senator CAROL BROWN (Tasmania) (15:11): That contribution from Senator Scarr was disappointing and, quite frankly, just plain sad, because I'm sure Senator Scarr actually believes exactly what he said in his contribution. He talked about facts and he talked about the scheme being rolled out efficiently and effectively. But let's look at some of the facts. Senator Gallagher, in her contribution when she talked about question time being a non-answer, is spot on. That's exactly what's happened here today. When I asked Senator Ruston three questions, she didn't answer any of them. She didn't answer any one. She took the first one on notice, she took the second one on notice and for the third one she said, 'We don't comment on individual cases.' That's what she said, so she didn't answer. And then we've got Senator Scarr who wants to talk about the facts and about this program. Well, 77,000 people are actually missing out on the NDIS, so that's your efficient and effective rollout. That's what that means to those people that are out there, waiting and trying to get the services that they need. These are the facts: we've had about six ministers in six years. That's a problem. Nobody stays in this portfolio area for very long, and they haven't got a handle on what they need to be doing. We have no CEO; the CEO resigned and we still have no CEO. We've had $1.6 billion taken out of the NDIS, and that is money that should stay in the NDIS for services and supports for participants. That's where that money should stay. It shouldn't go back to prop up your budget. That is what is happening. You put a staffing cap on the NDIS. Everyone knows—the Productivity Commission knows—that that needs to go. There are not enough people to roll this out efficiently and effectively, because you have hamstrung the NDIA by putting in a staffing cap. You put a review in and you didn't listen to the recommendations. There was a recommendation that the staffing cap needed to be reviewed. We need to come in here and highlight the cases where people are missing out. We've had cases where a participant who suffered from progressive spastic paraplegia was told he was not disabled enough. If that doesn't tell you that there's an issue around training and that you need to put some more effort into it, then I don't know what's going to. But there's one thing that we can be sure of in terms of what is happening with the government's rollout of the NDIS: it is not happening effectively or efficiently. I'm sure Senator Scarr's contribution was a contribution he believed in. But the facts do not bear out his contribution at all. We're looking at 77,000 people missing out because of delays, because of the issues around plans—and that doesn't even go to the fact that, on average, people are using only 50 per cent of their first plan. Why do you think that is? It is because the services are not there—that is why. And whose responsibility is that? It's the NDIA and this government. This government is responsible for the rollout. It's responsible to ensure that it is working efficiently and effectively. And it is not. (Time expired)