Senator BIRMINGHAM (South Australia—Minister for Education and Training) (14:34): Our energy policy will be driven by a desire to ensure it is affordable, reliable and meets Australia's emission reduction targets and commitments. We will be ensuring that energy policy in Australia does not play favourites between technologies and is not driven by ideology—like the 50 per cent renewable energy target of those opposite, made with no modelling, no costing and no details but just a random ambit claim that they take out at election time. We will make sure that energy policy is informed by evidence— The PRESIDENT: Senator Roberts, a point of order? Senator Roberts: My question was simple: will the policy be based on empirical evidence, solid data and physical observations? The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Senator Roberts. I believe the minister was indicating a move towards answering your question directly, but the minister still has just over half of his time to answer. Senator BIRMINGHAM: I think the very last word I spoke there was 'evidence'. Our policy will absolutely be driven by evidence—evidence of what can guarantee reliability, affordability and meeting our emissions reduction targets. It will be driven not by ideology like those opposite, but by ensuring that investment, whether it is in storage capabilities such as pumped hydro or in cleaner coal capabilities, meets our commitments to the world as well as our commitments to Australian consumers, households and businesses for affordable and reliable energy. Senator Dastyari: What about sovereign citizens? It is my will! The PRESIDENT: On my left! It is unfortunate you are closer to me now, Senator Dastyari. Senator Roberts, a final supplementary question.